Let's Argue About Vox

Yeeeeeeeees, a Vox buff!!!

I actually like the balance changes for first time in a long time. I just have 1 complain: where is idris??? He is just a cool image, would be fun to have him as a hero again.

@Lebatron that would kill him even more than he already is.

Meh I kinda dislike this update. I mean for the heroes they DID update, it was all warranted for the most part, but this is the second update in a row where they barely touched a lot of heroes, and many others could use tweaks in one way or another. It seems like they’re sliding into a pattern of only updating heroes people complain about instead of updating heroes across the board! That said I’m happy for Vox mainly as much as I can’t stand him (Agree with @Lebatron that his resonance bounces can reach way too far from his actual position. I mean if you’re a ranged carry like celeste and early game you can’t help but be pelted by his hits every time you move into attack range because his resonance bounces off the minions, it’s annoying. resonance bounce should primarily be affecting melee heroes and ranged carries that overstep, not everybody who walks just slightly in minion range. I think this will become more apparent how bad it is when they buff him but until then :slight_smile:)

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Prior to the range buff he received (which was only when overdriven) he was dead as cp. Nerfing the range would leave a Vox with the same range and less damage than when he was dead. Asking for a range reduction is asking to kill a hero.

So basically make him useless. There is no point in having a carry that can’t hit the enemy.


The compromise I see for Vox is having a short resonance bounce with high damage potential or having huge AoE with mediocre damage (without ult.)

As it stands rn, he has huge AoE with mediocre damage outside of his ult. And I like it like that. The problem with CP Vox when they brought him back was he had the best of both worlds, good teamwide damage (perk) and mediocre damage on his basic atk. After the multiple nerfs, his only damage is his ult. And I hate it.

Im glad he’s garbage in a 1v1 as CP and that gives his WP to shine.

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I don’t think Vox resonance should be severely nerfed, but I do think it needs a small one. Also I don’t think that nerfing it a bit will make him not hit the enemy. In fact what you quoted states specifically what I mean: when the enemy is in melee range and when a ranged carry like celeste oversteps to try to get to him. The problem with Vox now is that from the early game you can’t even get close to his minion wave without taking damage all the time, and that’s not fun for ranged carries with poke abilities that might have to get in range of his resonance to even clear the his minion wave, much less get to him, like pre-maxed A celeste.

That wouldn’t make him dead, but it would require him to actually have minions close to the enemy or require him to get in closer to actually hit the enemy himself, which isn’t a need now: you can have about a hero model’s worth of space between your hero and his minion waves and you still get hit by resonance as if you were right next to the minions. Notice that now he is just underpowered, it’s not that he doesn’t have massive range. What happens when he actually gets more power? This is why I say people are probably going to find new Vox a nuisance. His range was never a problem recently. In fact the only reason he wasn’t more annoying was because he was so underpowered that you could take hit after hit from him and still stay in the fight.

I think it’s a bit dramatic to say a slight nerf on his resonance bounce range would kill him, as it isn’t even his problem at the moment.

@RiseChu pretty much said it: he has vast aoe with mediocre dmg after all the nerfs he received BECAUSE he was too strong and would team wipe once they gave him a range boost. That’s why they upped the ult dmg in the first place. Now they’re bringing his dmg back up without reducing his range in the slightest. Back to team wiping from the background most likely >_>; I think Magnus’s range of split A’s off the first minion in a wave is actually similar to Vox’s resonance, but the problem is Vox is getting to hit you every other freaking second with it, while Magnus only gets to do it once every 6-7 seconds by late game with more dmg, giving you a window to actually attack him. Imagine if magnus’s B was on a 3 second cooldown and you could split fire as much as you could A? That’s what vox basically is going to be with too much cp dmg.

So… if the enemy Celeste doesn’t make a mistake, you can’t do anything? You become useless? Why would you use a hero you can leave useless so easily?
Making it so he doesn’t hit ranged heroes is not what I would call “small nerf”.

That’s not true. Even a Vox versus Vox can dodge all the bounces. Considering he gets outranged by most other carries, they can do it too. He could do it even before the first ranged buffs (in the AA) he got when he had the shortest basic attack range. Hint: at 4.5 range he used to have, you could still dodge it (the range buff in bounces was only done to the overdrive).

It would leave him dead, there is no point in using a damage dealer that can’t deal damage. He already needs minions close to the enemy.

Otherwise he would just be melee?? His range combined isn’t even the highest a mage has. Dodging the bounces, even when overdriven isn’t hard, if you are getting damaged by them constantly it’s your fault.

He becomes viable.

But it was in the past. It has been proven that a shorter range Vox is worth less than a minion.

In your last paragraph there are some things I feel I need to correct:
The range buff wasn’t what made him op, it wasn’t until they gave him higher crystal ratio on the AAs when he became op. Range alone made him viable, yet he was still not truly meta.

Magnus gets to bounce late game each 2s, 6-7s simply is not possible because the mark doesn’t last as long. Another advantage Magnus has is higher cc, and being able to hit from afar, the range combined from Magnus is 20 (12 from the A + 8 from the bounce) and being able to bounce to all enemies.

Magnus can split fire as much as he can A, having a 3s cooldown B is not even close to fair compared to Vox. The B is a stun, a ranged AoE stun that allows Magnus to trigger the passive twice. Magnus also has a much stronger ult in both damage, range, and bounces potential.

That’s not what Vox will do. Vox still has less base damage, less scaling, less range, less bounces. Vox needs to be in basic attack range to deal the damage, the rest of the mages can maintain their range.

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Dude that’s not what I mean. Your dramatizing what I’m saying. A celeste should be able to get in range to A a Vox without having to get hit by the Vox resonance any time she gets anywhere near close to her minions. Right now that is not the case as celeste range before overdrive means that her resonance bounced minions will cause her to be damaged before she can get anywhere near close to using her A. I’m saying a celeste and vox should be able to trade attacks in a somewhat comparable range, and on overdriven A, Vox should have to get in closer, have minions closer to her, or the celeste should have to be closer to HIM for the resonance bounces to hit. I AM definitely saying that vox’s resonance bounces should not be on par with the range of a ranged carry because he gets them on every AA as opposed to range carries being able to poke once every 2-4 seconds on average, even if they have longer range. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be able to hit ranged carries at all, but that he shouldn’t be hitting them from so far away due to resonance bounces when they have far less opportunity to attack him due to cooldown, range restraints before overdrive, non-pass through abilities, etc.

As for dodging his bounces yes you can dodge them but what’s the point if you can’t get in close enough to attack and he is just pushing your wave back? And doubly so if you’re a mage who can’t get close?

As for him being melee, your dramatizing what I’m saying so I’m gonna leave that one alone.

And again I’m not saying going back to super short range. I’m saying scaling back a LITTLE BIT. NOT A LOT. I repeat. NOT A LOT. I didn’t say the range buff was what made him op. I said his range combined with his power is what did, same as you. Why are we disagreeing on this?

And HUH on the magnus stuff? I am referring to nothing else but the arcane split fire after hitting his mark which you can do about every time you use his B first then his A, which is about 6 seconds without cooldown. And magnus splitfire from the FURTHEST minion from the enemy has about the same range as a resonance bounce from the CLOSEST minion to an enemy, possibly a bit shorter since the splitfire range nerf. I’m saying imagine if magnus could do vox’s splitfire dmg every other second like vox does resonance bounce every other second. Obviously it won’t be AS strong. Vox is still weaker. But every buff to his cp WITH the range he has makes it closer to a magnus splitfire with a less than 1 second cooldown.

Not talking about being stunned or any of that. Completely irrelevant. O.o

And if it’s not clear I’m talking about cp vox. Wp vox is not even a part of what I’m saying because yes, he wp vox will have to get in close range. I’m saying CP VOX will not have to and will again be dealing more damage, just not as much as before. Basically they’re sliding back to when CP VOX was op without fixing the actual problem with CP VOX: that any time your team got close to him, everyone would get pelted with massive damage resonance bounces and just crumble even if they were at the backend. Now he’s not at the power he used to be even with these buffs but what I’m saying is he’s just going to be annoying to face again.

And @VaKTaBi heroes shouldn’t be annoying to face. They should be challenging. Not even being able to get near a hero to attack them with no break inbetween their attack cycle unless there is nothing else to bounce off of, or unless you are a long range carry, is what I call annoying, not challenging.

Again: NOT talking about WP Vox here.

Celeste’s A range is higher than Vox’s bounces even before overdrive, you can hit him without being hit. If he can’t have the range of a ranged carry, he can’t hit them, he won’t deal damage and he would be worthless. In exchange of triggering it with Avery AA, he needs to get much closer (AA range) and with less damage.

Thats the point, you can hit him. You don’t need to get close, as a mage you have the range needed to hit him without getting close. He needs to get close to you, whereas mages doesn’t need to be close to him.

Which has proven time and time again to make him weak and not even viable. I will disagree with any proposal of nerfing Vox range simply because that’s killing the hero, and I will never agree on killing a hero unless it’s Pateto.

I know you were talking about CP, I never mentioned WP as he is just a minion.

Magnus doesn’t need the B to trigger the passive. The cooldown of the A allows him to bounce with just the A.

Doesn’t that description make annoying every AA based ranged carry?

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HUH? we gotta disagree on that. A celeste can just barely reach a vox with a non overdrived A and not get hit if he is at max aa range from her first minion and they are all hit with resonance. After overdrive is another story altogether. As for mages yes some can without getting hit but during that time he can decimate your wave push into your turret AND dodge your attacks especially if they are from afar and have decent travel time and he doesn’t have a cooldown whereas as a mage you do. He doesn’t have to get close either, that’s what resonance is for. He does have to push in, but that’s different from being close.

I mean if your premise is that decreasing his resonance range in any way will kill him is where you make your stand then there’s no real room for debate. I just don’t agree that he doesn’t, right now, have massive resonance range.

As for the comment about AA heroes, the difference is you can dive them since they are CLOSER to you in AA range. Vox’s resonance means he doesn’t have to be in AA range.

@VaKTaBi Those heroes have counterplay. Joule you can stay from a decent range and use a hero with movement abilities to dodge her. Ishtar you can range her or wait out her ult. This is different from annoying. Vox you just can’t get close or even relatively close. Krul again, range him, have movement abilities, bait him, etc. And again with a Vox damage bufd the damage difference as an advantage is mitigated, which is what I said from the start. Please stop dramatizing what I’m saying.

Just don’t get near the minions lol. Lanes are big enough to prevent any damage from bounces. Why would he decimate your wave without you doing the same? He needs to get close, he needs to get into AA range with whatever he can bounce on, that limits him far more than a mage that has all that range combined with no limitations. Specially in teamfights, having to be in a 5.8 range is a noticeable disadvantage compared to a mage like Celeste that can stay at 9 range from any enemy.

More or less than the average mage. A range killing him isn’t my opinion, it’s a fact, it’s been proven in the past time and time again that with less range he just doesn’t work as cp.

That’s not true… you need to basic attack to make the resonance bounce… that inherently puts him at a maximum of 5.8 range from at least one enemy, less than most snipers.

Vox has counterplay: don’t get near whatever is bouncing the resonance. In the past with 4.5 range you could get close without being hit, I’m sure with 9 range (the minimum a mage usually has) you can do it too. Btw, he may not suffer from cooldowns like mages, he does suffer however from attack speed and it’s vulnerability to AP.

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Again, he can do damage the whole time you’re trying to get into his range and since he’s getting a damage buff that mitigates the “you will do more damage than him” part (by a bit).

@Guest_78 Again that’s the point, you have to avoid a wide area just to get to him and he can just position himself nearer to the minions or further away, limiting your attack distance, and he can move too, moving between targets he bounces on and maintaining a bigger distance so no, he doesn’t need to be that close to bounce. And in teamfights he can backline which is what he did when he was op. And again I’m not saying massively less range.

I’m repeating myself over and over here so I’m just going to leave it at that. We can disagree. Disagreeing is fine. We’ll see when the patch comes out. And no I don’t think he’s going to be massively op.

Agree, let’s agree to disagree. I don’t think he will be op either (lol, I consider him the worst mid laner right now so…), but we’ll see. I hope WP Vox sees a resurgence, i miss him and it’s the one I enjoy the most.

Off topic but back before the NS Taka skin event, didnt Vox have a wp ratio on his ult?

Nope, originally he didn’t even have ratios on the ult. It all came from the bounces. I remember when I first started I saw his kit and said “wtf, this hero has no ratios, he is trash” then I saw Cp Vox deleting entire teams and not knowing what happened XD

Why is it a far-reaching resonance bounce, or he’s “useless” - @VaKTaBi and @Guest_78? I’m saying make a slight alteration. Vox, IMO, is already a very strong pick right now, especially his CP path. I am able to hard carry as a mid lane vox and carry pretty hard in lane in 3v3. I am able to attack the closest minion and get :vgitem_dragonseye: stacks, :vgitem_eveofharvest: sustain, all while keeping a safer distance from the enemy heroes. Facing a Vox, I find it ridiculous at times how far the bounce can hit me, and I find myself thinking, “I can’t be ANY farther from these minions - I’m just tying to get a last hit, dang-it, I’m not even trying to engage the Vox!”.

What I’d suggest is something as small as reducing the range by 0.5 - 0.75 at first. Just see how it impacts him. If it makes him "useless"as you say, they can hot fix it to a 0.25-0.5 range reduction, or back to it’s normal range and cut back on the buff he’s about to get.

On another hero, in regards to Idris, I am in agreement with you @Guest_78 - it’d be nice to see him get some versatility back, perhaps allowing his A to always provide a barrier that scales slightly with WP ratio, rather than having it only available if he hasn’t received damage. Or perhaps a slight buff to his base stats levels 1-5 when he is weakest? I do think that currently his CP path is in a better place mid to late game than many nay-sayers think.

Because that’s how it was in the past. Before the range buff he got he was simply unable to deal the damage, reason why CP was never used over wp. The past shows it.
I consider him the worst mage and no joking, I firmly believe someone should ever lose to a Vox. As long as you dodge the ult, which isn’t hard, you can simply ignore him, I don’t find his presence meaningful outside of the ult. He doesn’t hit further than any other mage, if a Vox hits you, any other mage would have hit you too.
I’m being dead serious, my reaction when I see the enemy pick Vox is considering that match freelo, I’m simply unable to see how once the ult is dodged he can do anything meaningful compared to any other mage. You’ve seen me in your streams, I always laughed when Vox was picked, and so far my attitude hasn’t changed this last months.

Btw, bounces doesn’t give .:vgitem_dragonseye: stacks. You need to directly attack the enemy, attacking a minion to bounce doesn’t trigger it.

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I do have to agree. Before 3.0, and Nivmett made the changes to bring back CP Vox, I played 2.0 Vox CP and the differences were noticeable.

Having to drop his bounce range will need some hefty compensation. Probably high ratios. Range in general has the power to turn a balanced character to op or potato.


Warhawk actually has to aim at you.

Not expecting to not receive any kind of damage, just expecting to be in a position to damage without starting out damaged without any reasonable opening on the enemy, besides a well placed dive or if I have long range. Also Vox’s resonance range is, again, not suggested to be lowered to the levels it was at before, just not an arms length away from the last enemy he hit.

Also I think both you guys are still conflating his actual cp power boost with his range boost when it seems convenient, to say that his range is needed to give him power, instead of mentioning the actual cp power he had, when you feel like it. Case and point; saying that vox is weak right now, and yet he still has the range? :wink: It’s not the range that made him strong, it’s the power he had, and they’re testing giving it back to him. Which is literally why I had been arguing that he is sliding towards the old recently op vox in the first place. It’s been acknowledged countless times that the reason Vox is easy now is because you do more damage on him when you dive on him. And he’s getting more damage. That’s about all I could possibly point out on the matter to make the case I was making so, that’s that.

Actually one more thing: the reason ppl play cp vox is the reason I play both varya and magnus often: they all have that extended range in one form or another that makes teamfights fun to mop up. However Varya and Magnus both have limitations that vox does not (hint: there’s a reason varya’s basic range is tied to her ult and a reason magnus’s splitfire is tied to both his cooldown and him actually hitting his target). His only limitation is his power for the most part. So as I stated in my initial post, I am happy for vox, as annoying as I find him.

Range is not what makes him strong, range is a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition.

What? Varya’s basic range has no dependency on the ult.

Am I missing something? Where is the AA range dependency?

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Here we go again: that’s exactly what I said. You’re making my exact argument, so I’m gonna leave it quotes.


And again conflating the two. :roll_eyes:

@Guest_78 Varya’s bonus chain lightning, and therefore range of her ability to chain AA’s between a certain number of enemies, is directly tied to the level of her ult. It says it right in the picture you posted. :upside_down_face: