There is a difference between the chain lighting range and the basic attack one. Even without the ultimate (2 bounces) the potential range she has is already much higher than Vox’, so she must be nerfed too, right? She does the same as Vox but with much longer range, in fact at level 12 he range potential is 36, you can literally be hit casually by a hero that you don’t even have on the screen. That doesn’t need a nerf but Vox does?
Agreed, there is a difference between the basic and chain lightning, but it’s pretty much the same mechanic as the difference between a vox basic and a resonance bounce. The difference between vox and varya and why she doesn’t need the nerf is that
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Her basic attack speed is much lower than his
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She doesn’t get bonus chains until her ult is up so there is a very good chance her lightning will chain on minions instead of hit the hero until later in the game, not to mention it’s a max of 6(?) chains of lightning whereas vox’s resonance just hits everything as long as he refreshes, no limit.
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Her A might chain lightning but it isn’t an AA so again slower damage potential than him
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She also doesn’t have the ult resonance damage potential like he does.
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All in all, while she has longer range and more damage, he has more opportunity to damage in his range and can damage more people faster, and he doesn’t have the drawbacks and limitations she does, like a charge up on all her abilities.
1.- that’s not true. Their attack speed in the early game is the same, later on she gains bonus attack speed from the ult.
2.- not true either. Vox bounces up to 2 enemies, same as varya, their targeting for the bounces is the same but varya has higher range potential. The number of bounces from Varya gets increased to a maximum of 5, while Vox can’t increase his 2 bounces.
3.- never mentioned the A.
4.- their ults are different, there is no point in comparing them
5.- not true either. Vox doesn’t have more opportunities to damage the enemy. Vox has less range than her on the AA, meaning she actually has an easier time attacking whatever to chain lighting. He can’t damage people faster, varya has a far more devastating combo than Vox, she also doesn’t depend on maintaining resonance nor using an ability to apply it.
You might be right on the attack speed.
The bounce however is another story. I’m not talking about the range. I’m talking about how Vox can resonance and attack multiple targets while Varya can only target her 6 targets total. The bounces can be refreshed to hit multiple targets, multiple times, after the initial hit, and will spread to everything close by. Not to mention he can just re-B whatever is near at any time. Varya can only attack 6 at a time.
I know you never mentioned the A. The reason I mentioned it is because Vox’s A can create additional resonance bounces same as Varya’s can chain lightning, except her ‘chain attack’ is in most cases slower and easier to miss and his is a double attack that also repositions him.
The reason I brought up his ult is his ult also creates resonance bounces. It’s not a comparison of ults. It’s to make a statement on how many ways he can create vast waves of resonance damage compared to how many ways varya can chain her lightning.
Again, because of all of these different ways vox can resonance bounce, vox has more opportunities to damage enemies. You keep focusing on the range. That’s not even what I’m talking about when it comes down to opportunity to attack the enemy. And I contest the idea that he can’t damage enemies faster between his AA’s, his A, and his Ult. The fact that vox has to maintain resonance is a largely non factor. He just has to press a button and make sure he has multiple enemies to target so he can juggle. Varya can target one enemy, stand there, and chain but she doesn’t get her chain count until her ult has points, compared to vox who has a resonance count as long as enemies are around, and while vox is ‘hindered’ in having to juggle, he has better in-the-moment reposition compared to Varya’s B, along with the fact that his slow makes it harder for enemies to get close to him in the first place, giving him more window to attack an enemy in his range, as well as keep enemies out of it.
Look man I really think we can just agree to disagree on certain things. I have no problem admitting where I’m wrong but I’m also going to stand up for where I think I’m right and it seems you’d do similar if not the same.
And vox can only attack 3 at a time, one as the main target and 2 as bounces. So varya can attack twice the targets vox can.
He can “just” re-B, Varya doesn’t need to because she isn’t limited to having to apply anything.
Whaaat??? She gets 2 3 bounces without the ultimate.
Varya’s kit is weaker overall. A super-long channeling ultimate, which is also easy to avoid. It’s essentially a flare. Her B is nice, but Vox’s A provides a nice escape mechanism, results in two attacks and any additional bounces to other marked targets, and charges up quicker. Varya’s A is the easiest projectile to avoid. Vox’s ultimate is quite powerful and easier to hit with. The other thing about Varya is that her chain lightning consumes quite a bit of energy, whereas Vox, as you know, just needs to cast B once and he’s able to apply his own “chain” damage without any additional cost to energy.
The reasons above are why I wouldn’t nerf Varya’s chain lightning range, despite the similarities to what Vox’s B and resonance does. Vox’s kit is a bit easier to apply damage and versatility in team fights, whereas with Varya, you’re just basic attacking.
Actually I agree with you where Varya is concerned. She can attack more targets at one time. I stand corrected where that is concerned, however I do still think vox generally has more options in how many targets he can hit in a given area, and how often between his AA, A and his ult, for most of the match, even if he can’t attack all of them at the same time.
And I meant she doesn’t get her extra chain count. The other 3 that give her her full chain range. So for most of the match she isn’t hitting out to the range that is actually possible for her, while vox still has the capability to bounce in whatever manner suits him, and even then that’s only if you max her ult in the first place.
Even if she doesn’t unlock her full power until level 12, before unlocking the ult she already can hit more enemies than Vox.
@Lebatron what I’m saying is that justifying a nerf to Vox by saying he has too much range with the bounces while also saying varya is okey makes no sense. I didn’t compare each of the kits, I’m comparing the range and enemies they can hit.
I understand, but if you’re going to consider nerfing two heroes based on one similarity, without considering the entirity of a kit, that’s bad balancing in my opinion. That’s why I wouldn’t compare the two.
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I’m simply nullifying the range argument. You can’t say it’s unfair how far he hits and then say a hero that hits with more less the same method (bounces in the basic attack) with thrice the range is fair.
Something can be unfair in the hands of one hero, while totally fine in the hands of another. This kind of direct comparison isn’t particularly fruitful, especially when the comparison is not actually that comparable. The two effects don’t even function the same way. There are so many differences like Varya having to “double cast” keeping her in place, the energy cost, the ratios, the chaining vs bounce mechanic, the finally just the actual kit they are tied to. Some abilities are just better versions of others, that’s not a problem at all in a MOBA.
Edit: The main thing I wanted to add to the discussion, is that it’s far more useful to talk about “health”, than balance. It’s a fact that with a shorter range, Vox could still be useful, the damage would just need to be way higher, or some other element of his kit stronger. In stead of saying “without X Vox can’t be good”, which is factually false, it’s more useful to talk about what y’all think suits his kit and makes him most engaging to play, and play against.
Power levels can — and frequently are — moved between different parts of a hero. Varya is a great example where damage has been moved from, and towards her AA vs her abilities many many times.
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Except if the range is low enough where he can’t hit the other heroes, aka what @TheInterpreter was saying. Also, before the range buff, it had been 2 years (more or less) where CP Vox wasn’t even considered viable and I think that 2 years it’s enough to have a big enough sample size to analyse how the lack of range affects him.
I really think you have to consider how often he can create resonance bounces between his AA, A and Ult when you consider the range. It’s way more often than the standard AA which basically increases his potential damage in a burst, and he can do it with little delay. Comparatively, for varya to chain any extra damage besides her AA, she has to charge up the b, hit with b, and hit with the A, giving her a handicap that Vox doesn’t have. Same as Magnus with his abilities. Vox’s A is AA dmg. He doesn’t have a handicap in aiming, he doesn’t have to get near the enemy like Varya’s B, he can actually dash away giving him an attacking retreat. And let me repeat I am not suggesting lowering the resonance range to the levels it was at before. You keep saying I am. I am not. I am saying slightly. Even by a tenth or two tenths of a point of necessary, just to avoid those long range resonances that seem to chip you from way further than should be possible since you were barely close to another enemy.
I played a game yesterday with Vox and I was about 4-5 heroes difference between myself and a Petal I was STILL resonance bouncing, and I didn’t use my ult. I also played a game yesterday against a Vox in mid and with support he was able to pressure both the minion wave and us back with just resonance bounces and well timed ults and by end game I kid you not I was by vaincrystal, he was by about our last middle turret, and somehow I was still getting hit by his resonance bounces and had to turn right around and go back to base to heal again. Maybe he ulted, idk, I wasn’t silenced though, and that’s what I’m talking about. It doesn’t always seem like they reach that far so maybe it might even be a bug but sometimes the range on resonance is just ridiculous for how many concurrent attacks you can be hit by it with, and the difference, again, with other heroes is that they have handicaps that Vox does not. Vox’s main handicap is that his B is a non damaging slow and he doesn’t have the same range as other carries, but again, he can gain that range in certain scenarios and if he’s going to have both that range and attack speed potential and be given his power back, which is what the patch seems to be signaling to a degree, then he should have some kind of good handicap besides just dive him.
The main point is I do NOT want to go back to playing games against cp vox where he is massacring your team from the back end because one person got close to him and everyone else is getting smacked by resonance that is just chipping health back at an alarming rate between his AA and abilities. It’s one thing to vs him alone. It’s another when he has support or his team in front of him preventing you from getting to him and you are getting teamwide damage not from just an ult or something but simply a wide ranging damaging secondary ability that spreads. And yes it isn’t that different from varya but at least usually that is coming from only her AA and no other ability and she is also easier to dive even if at the back end, same as magnus.
Doesn’t matter how often he can create resonance bounces if they can’t hit the enemy.
No, you are asking for a range reduction big enough to not hit enemies unless they miss position, which is roughly the same.
He has good handicaps though, other than diving him.
Varya can do that too, in fact she can do it easier than Vox, and literally every other mage can too.
If a Vox managed to pressure both the minion wave and you, you where miss positioning, it’s perfectly possible to prevent any damage from the bounces.
He can not bounce to every hero, bounces are only 2, second, it’s not that hard to dodge the bounces, and third despite varya only having the AA, she can bounce thrice the targets Vox can with also thrice his range potential, Magnus can bounce to every single enemy with 20 range, around double of Vox.
That’s not what I’m saying and that’s not what I’m asking for. If you’re going to put words in my mouth repeatedly, when I made a specific statement multiple times over, I’m not going to entertain any further response. I really don’t appreciate misstating what I say when I take the time to be exact.
I’m aware of that with Varya. You keep seemingly intentionally ignoring the fact that Vox gets resonance from his A and his Ult, giving him more opportunities to damage than the standard AA, so no, I don’t think he need same range on bounce, but ok. On you. And I don’t mean literally every hero at one time but that he has opportunity to attack any hero due to spread and his AA dash, unless referring to his ult specifically. Oh wait; his ult makes resonance.
Since you want to try to find a hill to stand on, as evidence of ignoring how and why cp vox used to decimate enemy teams DURING TEAMFIGHTS when he was considered op, instead of having an actual discussion, I’m not going to bother any more.
Last point I will bother making is I hope they just give Vox the wp buffs and don’t bump up his resonance damage at all, or if they’re going to, are very careful with it, as powerful cp vox was never really fun to try to play against for most people as the counterplay against him is limited to ranging him. He should stay a somewhat mediocre team-wide damage dealer that needs the support of his team as cp and and even more mediocre teamwide damage dealer who can carry against single to dual targets as wp. I do think he needs a slight buff to cp but going from 20-75 seems vast. That is all.
In what part did I lie?
Vox doesn’t need the same range on the bounces as varya, simply because he doesn’t have it. I’m not ignoring the ways Vox can bounce, i simply don’t consider them relevant when discussing how much range does Vox need.
For your edit: Vox counterplay isn’t limited to just “ranging him”. Are you saying he shouldn’t be at the same level as other mages in terms of strenght?
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This has deteriorated into an argument that isn’t useful to the rest of the forum. If you want to continue it, take it to PMs, please.