And, I’ll say it again. Taka has boots, a reflex block (much better than the actual reflex block), and fountain built into his kit. Those are literally the core defensive items of the game. As well as having components of clockwork, tension bow, and poison shiv.
Taka’s kit is overloaded af!
Taka is seeing play in 5v5 at higher tiers. Quite frankly he’s probably going to be meta when ranked comes out because of his clear speed and movement speed, once he has storm crown. Furthermore, his ability to jungle invade and escape is unmatched.
Taka didn’t see much play in high tier 3v3 play because he has poor synergy and made the main carry a huge target, but that’s not so much of an issue on 5v5 because there are 3 laners on a team instead of one.
Furthermore, vision is a much harder resource to manage in 5v5 as well. Not that his stealth is a big issue, more so his crazy loaded kit coupled with his cool down build.
Dude. You keep repeating the same shit on auto-loop that’s been debunked 20 times by 3 different people, with reference to actual data, and have the nerve to call someone annoying?
That’s wild.
(And while I love the new forums to bits and pieces, they really need an ignore function - because I don’t think I can handle much more of this.)
And yet the fact that Taka’s data is skewed gets no mention. The fact that there are many other heroes that are powerful when used properly but don’t get picked often because of their need to snowball/reliance on team synergy & high skill with their kit gets no mention. Stop bashing people because you disagree with them. There’s no need to be salty and express as much animosity over the subject.
I really, really hate that. If you disagree, you disagree. That’s it. Done deal. And if you feel the need to be that salty I could definitely spend the time looking for every higher rank, consistently great K/D ratio Taka to post just to listen to you talk about all the various “exceptions” with “any hero”.
They’re probably “exceptions” because they’re using him to his max potential, unlike the majority. Oh wait, data doesn’t highlight that.
Look. Magmaw already addressed the issue of cherry-picking data. Yes, you can do that. No, it does not lend credibility to an argument.
The issue is not that we are disagreeing with Ikaika. The issue is that he keeps repeating his point of view, ad infinitum, without taking better supported arguments into consideration.
That’s a disingenuous way of participating in a discussion. If your opinion can not be swayed, regardless of arguments and evidence presented, then say so and STFU afterwards. Because otherwise you are not discussing, you are shouting a badly formed opinion out to the world, while covering your ears. And that is rude towards everyone who gets to interact with you.
Nah, your STFU attitude is rude, so lets devolve this: how about you STFU since you made your point, and are being rude doing so? Oh, and basing things on blanket data doesn’t lend credibility to your argument either, or would you like to take a moment to learn how data can misrepresent actual results depending on what the data is characterizing. Will you STFU while I link you to actual scientific research on data sets.and how they misrepresent information in a variety of settings? Or would you like to continue to ignore the exceptions actually using him the right way & call it cherry-picking just to sound cool?
See? We can both be rude while we’re making points. I, for one, don’t enjoy doing so, but if you’re going to be rude to people just because they have an opinion that’s different than yours, and pretending you’re not doing it while you clearly are, I have no problem beating you at your own game.
Edit: Oh, and since your not being rude as you say, how about you take example from the forum moderator that commented on this post and made the point about Taka not being OP based on data without telling anyone to STFU. I’m not that patient with rude people unfortunately, so take the salt you’re bringing.
Okay. So we agree that there are exceptions, as in a small number of cases which clearly deviate from the median data, which you could select in isolation to suggest that Taka (or any other hero) is not balanced.
But that isn’t cherry-picking, because picking cherries is cool. (It really isn’t, I tried.)
What I take away from this is: You are upset, and you are somehow attempting to make a point by educating me on the misinterpretation of statistical data.
That’s fine, but it would be a lot more effective if you were not trying to do so in a post in which you also deliberately misrepresent a set of data by suggesting to screen it for people who “play the right way”. I can do the same for any hero at all, and the result is inevitably that the hero in question is OP.
Somehow that should clue you in on a flaw in methodology.
Since you do not enjoy excerting rudeness, you may want to re-read my posts very carefully. You won’t find any one instance of me claiming not to be rude towards Ikaika. There’s 0 hypocrisy involved that you could get worked up over, sorry.
In the majority of cases, I will treat people as they treat me. It’s a fairly simple rule - and easy to predict, too.
Thanks for not being as negative this time around.
I can agree that the aggregate data suggests he is not, and I peronally only think that his healing mechanic with CP & CD is OP, as well as the time his Kaiten gives him invincibility on the ground, which may be due to lag or some other factor. I still also think that his kit is highly loaded, but his range & damage potential mitigate that. I do also think that screening for people who build/play Taka to his potential is appropriate, and equate it to people who can play CP SAW at higher ranks: It’s not something everyone can do, just like not everyone can play Churnwalker at every rank effectively. To me, that makes screening appropriate.
We have a disagreement on how to designate an OP hero, as I base it specifically on what a hero can do with the most appropriate build for their playstyle, as well as the most appropriate playstyle for the hero’s kit. That isn’t represented by aggregate data, so my view might be different because of this.
Also, I get upset at unnecessary rudeness regardless, hypocritical or not, but since we can both de-escalate just as easily, I now know you can be reasonable as well.
I personally would base judgments on OP heroes on the best and brightest players and what they draw out of the hero, or what broken tactics people figure out how to use (stuff like double-gauntlet, or clockwork’s massive cooldown reduction and power upon the revamp), but you and others might judge it differently. That’s fine, because we’re judging it on different things. There’s inherently going to be differences in viewpoint based on that as well.
Who hard counters Taka? Taka literally hard counters every carry with exception to highly mechanical Skye’s, but even in that case, Taka still is the biggest counter to Skye.
Ardan with a team is probably the most effective at countering Taka, because he can Vanguard Taka’s burst and lock him in a gauntlet if he waits for the reflex block. However, again, you have to dedicate a team to countering one hero. 1v1 Taka will maul Arden.
Taka can initiate fights and de-initiate fights. That’s the power of stealth characters. However, with the amount of cool down he can build with similtaneous burst, as well as extending his already much larger than average utility, it is disgusting.
With Taka self heal he can stay on the map with minimal ports back to base, as well as safely invading with fast clears through the enemy jungle.
Sure right out of the gate he’s not the early game monster that Koshka is, but once he’s get X-retsu the snowball gets real. Even Koshka has a hard time against Taka’s invades at that point, because all Taka has do is Kaku or reflex block her ycnf and she’s boned.
Taka is definitely ridiculous in 5v5. I’m on like a 6 game win streak, basically hard carrying and initiating the snowballs and objective captures, and I only played like 4 times before 5v5, because he’s such a cringe hero.
He definitely wasn’t so bad in 3v3, because it was a smaller map and you could focus down the other carry to be effective. However, that’s not the case in 5v5. Taka’s natural movement speed and dive tears up back line carries, which makes it imperitive to focus down the taka fast, which is no easy task with his ridiculously overloaded kit.
The problem with your approach is that it produces skewed results when applied to data samples, to the point where they become de facto unusable.
If you have a look at the hero statistics at VG-level play on Vainsocial, the majority of heroes will have a >50% win-rate. That shouldn’t even be possible, except that most people at that tier have a >50% overall win-rate, and get matched against PoA players still. If you switch from Ranked to 5vs5, all heroes will have a positive win-rate.
Taking the flat number is already giving you false results (if you assume 50% as being balanced), and that is before further reducing the sample size by looking for specialists.
At that point, you can no longer deduce anything from the win-rate percentage itself. It would naturally go up, the more proficient the players become (because they get matched against mechanically weaker opponents disproportionally often). There’s just no conclusion to be drawn, other than that better players get better results.
Ironically, this is part of the reason why Taka sees so much perceived success in 5vs5. It was mentioned before, but with the Matchmaker producing player spreads on purpose, there are always easy targets to feed on, if one of the higher-ranking players locks Taka.
Now, if you look at the win-rate of VG Taka players in 5vs5, it’s an impressive 59.4%. That’s also the 4th lowest of any hero.
In other words: VG players achieve better results with 33 other heroes out of 37. To me, that paints a pretty clear picture.
Of course you could pin Taka’s potential to specialist play. But then I would insist on please having pros on the other team, too. At which point we’re back to more or less the same numbers, at a guess.
This is what i love about this forum… The constructive discussions it produces is just… wonderful to read…
I would just add both WALI and TheInterpreter have valid points that really can be used together in colaboration to produce a true indication of "OP"ness of a hero…
There’s no reason why both idea’s can’t be used . . . it might be a bit confusing and difficult . . . but the result would be fairly accurate.
Taka is countered by a 25 gold item, a 0 cost camera and hard CC. Is it that hard to beat…
With two mortal wound items in game, it gives him more of a hard time. Even Alpha is better then Taka and Alpha counters taka. Go do more research please before you complain…
Please take in account, Kaku loses 1 damaging ability into his kit same for gwen and her skeddadle. They moved his 3rd sorcue of damage into his autos but it doesnt help CP taka very much, only use of them is early game. Once its late game, he has a big damage gap between his next x-retsu and kaiten. A gap of 10 seconds on average. You just have the same amount of time to single him out and kill him since CP taka basics do nothing. He traded his Kaku for lack of basic attack damage. All heroes who have utility on their kit mostlu shift some of the damage to the perk.
lol you seem to be a hard numbers guy @Wali. I respect that even if I don’t fully agree with all the results it translates into. As @PumpkinKing666 pointed out, there are a lot of hard counters to Taka. As stated before, even though I agree with @Ikaika that his kit is loaded, the only two things I feel are OP on him are his healing and his Kaiten invincible time, which seems to last at least 1.5 seconds after he hits the ground, which can make a big difference on timing hits to keep him out of Kaku. DOT dmg can counter his Kaku, but a lot of good Taka players will build boots to dash away until the mortal wound or SF effect is done, and Kaku after. Now pinning him down is easy yes. I’m taking about a Taka that actually picks singular targets off, or waits for gaps in team position.
I’d say the hardest counter to Taka is grouping up, which is easy enough to do, but if you’re facing a team that harasses you while he’s hanging around invisibly in the backline just to flank, and is actively destroying cameras for him as a strategy, that’s another story.
I’ve played against some good Taka’s that were never around while a heavy fight was going on, only attacked between team fights as allies were traveling or splitting up to cover multiple objectives or farming, was always using their teamates to figure out camera positions and avoid them or simply walk through them if necessary. Again, it’s not the invisibility that makes Kaku OP to me, it’a how much he can heal, just to come back for more, over and over again, without having to do anything but use the ability and find some cover. Do I think he needs a wholesale nerf or change to his kit? No. But I do think he shouldn’t heal as much hp back with no impactful cost, because no other hero has that risk to reward ratio in pure health regen. Everyone else has to build defense items, or risk being a bit squishy, or fear mortal wounds. All Taka has to do is get away, and a good team will rotate to give him that opportunity to do so, coming back to the issue of focusing him or pinning him down with multiple CCs.
