There is an imbalance in the cast of VG

The new format seemed to have NOT caused any problems, so I’ll be going forward with it until it does.
Note that I will be referencing a list of characters and what types of characters they counter (melee or ranged). Remember that these are MY OPINIONS. There are also characters that I’ve excluded (such as Ozo or Cath/:b:ony) because they counter a subsection of said types (Low CC comps and mages respectively).
Take note of: Number of characters in each side of the list and the respective captains that are in the list.


Anti Melee

  • Baptiste
  • Churnwalker
  • Idris (CP)
  • Kestrel
  • Lance
  • Lorelai
  • Malene
  • Petal
  • Phinn
  • Reim
  • Rona
  • Samuel
  • Skaarf
  • Skye
  • Vox

Anti Ranged

  • Alpha
  • Blackfeather
  • Fli :b: :b: er
  • Fortress
  • Koshka
  • Idris (WP)
  • Reza
  • Ringo
  • Taka

So, chances are you could figure this out by just reading the rest of my thread, but you would know that I am INCREDIBLY BIASED. I love melee characters and I love playing highly mechanical damage dealers. Risk reward is my JAM, and melee damage dealers are all about risk-reward. So obviously, I hate how Melee plays in Vainglory. Blackfeather used to be fun, but now most Melees are just generally kind of unfun to play, or they suck. RIP WP Idris. But my main gripe in Vainglory is that there are so many ways Melee players can get screwed over. Compared to ranged characters, you don’t particularly do more damage. In fact, the risk is so high that you generally need to build two defence items. But my question is, why is the risk so high? Why do assassins like Blackfeather and Taka need to build tank? IMO, other than the fact Gwen will literally one shot you before you can even touch her, it’s because of how many anti-melee characters exist in Vainglory.

Melee = :(

Now, I want to refer back to the list here. It’s pretty clear that IMO, there are more melee counters than ranged counters. There are a few issues I have with this. Firstly, most teams are guaranteed to have a melee counter. These characters are generally pretty good even into matchups they’re weak into such as CP Idris or Baptiste. There will always be SOMETHING a Melee character has to fight. However, compared to these Melee characters, not only do ranged characters have less things to deal with, but generally, they have much less to worry about. Before you call me biased, I do play my fair share of incredibly squishy ranged carries. Although I am scared of these ranged counters, half the time I don’t even need to do anything about them to have them peeled off me.
Except Taka, screw him.
This is a shame because if I want to build something like Crit Blackfeather, I will get destroyed. It’s not even a question. A large majority of the time I’m even playing BF, I’m generally thinking to myself ‘Why am I not just playing a ranged character’. Or Rona. Compared to many other games (and therefore my standards), melee characters don’t feel particularly impactful as damage carries.

Melee carries

There are two games that I’ve particularly enjoyed Melee carries in. Paragon (Rest in peace, you were too young) and Battlerite.
For a quick summary of the games, Paragon is a TPS MOBA where you built your own item shops out of game. It was complex, fun, and very skill based. (You have to aim your AAs fool). Battlerite is an arena PvP game that plays very similarly to a MOBA mechanics-wise but doesn’t have any of the laning phase, items, or sort of jungle objectives. Just. Fights.
In Paragon, my favourite character was Serath. At the time of her release, she was the only Melee carry in the game, in a position that was generally held for AA based snipers. Even after her release, the carries that came after her either were ranged or were melee and had some sort of gimmick that made them work in the carry position (Temp Range, EZ Gold and Sustain). Serath was pure SCALING. You had your AA, a short CD reset and slow, a short invincibility + AOE AA and an amazing SKY SLAM move. Plus, you had your godly ult. Just this ult needs it’s own paragraph to contain how much I love it.

Seraph lets her dark side take over for 15 seconds. During this time, enemies in an AOE around her will recieve one stack of burn and weakness. Basic attacking enemies will apply additional stacks of burn and weakness. Additionally, burning targets take 25% extra damage from Seraphs basic attacks and Seraph has an ability damage component on her AAs based on how many stacks of burn are on the opponent.
Max 3 stacks of both burn and weakness.
Weakness reduces damage done by 10/15/20%

If you don’t understand why this makes me wet as HECC, let me explain.
Firstly, the burn is ability damage, when Seraph is primarily a physical damage dealer. This is important because IF the enemies build a bunch of armour, like the cowards they are, you’ll have some hybrid damage to help you kill the opponent. Secondly, your weakness stacks let you easily duel anyone, combined with your lifesteal and crits. Finally, your 25% empowered effect makes you the hardest hitter in the game, critting and healing way harder than anyone else.

This is all balanced because Seraph is MELEE. She blows up incredibly quickly, and scales pretty terribly with defence items. She was made to focus on melees and skirmish on the edges of the fights, but once the fight really broke out, she could dive into the enemy backline and really cause some chaos to take out one or two enemy players (and generally dying in the process).

Battlerite is split into three classes; Melee, Ranged and Support. Ranged and Support are probably what you expect, but I want to phrase this now. NONE OF THE MELEE CHARACTERS ARE TANKS. They simply have abilities that let them avoid taking damage to specific degrees, but they are all DPS characters. They are all essentially Melee carries (I WONDER WHY I PLAY THIS GAME MORE THAN VG HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM :thinking:). Since I’ve already somewhat touched on the assassin types in my Taka rework thread, I just want to talk about the general mechanics that make every melee tick.

There are two main ways that Melee characters can avoid damage in Battlerite. Counters and I-Frames. Counters are pretty easy to understand. You counter the opposing projectile, and trigger an effect. At first, you might think that this is a predictive ability, but in reality, it’s a reactive ability. By reacting to the enemies ability animation, you can avoid the damage. Once you get even better, you can use the effect of the counter as a method of aggressively engaging. For example, if you see a Jade channeling her snipe, you could counter to try and intercept it to drag her in. Then cancel casting comes in, where players can cancel their abilities mid cast, which is just incredibly fun to play.
I-Frames are frames where your character is invincible. Literally, cannot be hit, cannot be hurt. These are generally tied to key abilities in a characters kit, such as mobility abilities or important damage abilities. This becomes fascinating when baiting out I-Frame abilities becomes an important strategy. Before you blow all of your energy on an ultimate, should you try to bait out their jump, or are you wasting time? Do they even have the reaction time to dodge your ability? It becomes an interesting game of remembering cooldowns and knowing when to punish your opponents. But in Battlerite, if you’re better than your opponent, you will WIPE THE FLOOR with them.

The Point

My point is, Melee carries can be INCREDIBLY FUN, but the environment of Vainglory doesn’t allow for them to have a place at all. A single Baptiste isn’t going to stop a Blackfeather, but a whole team will destroy a diver without double defence. The only exceptions I’ve found to this rule are WP Grace and Joule, and that’s because one is completely broken and the other is partially ranged.

The Solution?

This will have to come in time. It’s been quite apparent from day 1 that Melee characters did not transfer very well from 3v3 to 5v5, either being completely busted or completely outclassed (Again, I shed a tear for every WP Assassin). It’s the type of problem that won’t be solved by just one action. For the short term, the best thing would to be to nerf damage, particularly crit. Getting literally one shot as BF by a TB SB TM TT Gwen was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life, and it basically made my solid laning phase irrelevant since I had decided to build crit that game. Alongside that, you could nerf armour to be at a similar place that Aegis is stat wise, just so snipers can still scratch characters that are actually meant to be tanky.

For the long term, it would just be to release more characters that counter ranged carries. Specifically ranged carries that counter other ranged carries. Currently, we only have Ringo (IMO), who can counter a majority of the ranged carries in the game by bursting them down from range at any point in the game. How interesting would it be to have a character that can launch a projectile that does more damage the further it travels. How cool would it be to have a ranged character that can run TOWARDS enemies quickly, but has difficulties running away from them, except they weren’t Gwen. There are a ton of possibilities for character designs that haven’t been tapped into. This also helps a TON when making team comps, since you want someone who can siege.

Rework the assassins. Not all of them, of course. I think Koshka and her design is flexible enough not to need a real rework, and Idris could be great with a few tweaks. I mean Blackfeather and Taka. These two really need a kit that can be fun but highly difficult to pull off, because that’s the point of an assassin. They’re meant to be difficult and mechanically demanding. CP Taka is an unfair bore, and WP Blackfeather has lost so much of his complexity that there’s nothing really there. Reza is fine. He exists, I guess.

Finally, INTRODUCE MORE ITEMS. There are so many reasons why I hate the current items in Vainglory (other than Tyrants Monocle. I love that thing.). Vainglory should introduce more items that have unique item effects, which ARE STRONGER FOR MELEE. PARTICULARLY FOR THE WEAPON TREE. The CP paths of characters can be balanced by their ratios, but the WP paths on characters ALWAYS have a 100% scaling on their AAs (except when they don’t. Baron.). This inherently means that either sniper abilities have to suck compared to the WP Melee counterparts, or Melee characters have to have tons of stats pumped into them. Either way, that’s boring. Unique items are my favourite things about MOBAs, and it has disappointed me how few VG has.


Melee characters should be able to build 5 damage items and actually work because it’s bomb as hell and a lot of fun.
The current state of VG (with it’s boatload of melee counter characters) means that these characters cannot shine.
Other games do it better. With enough mechanical skill and strategical awareness, you can be an effective melee DPS carry.
VG should

  1. Introduce more ranged counters, specifically ranged characters that counter ranged characters.
  2. Rework characters that don’t correctly fit their archetype cough assassssins cough. Reward these characters for building more damage, while keeping them away from building more than one defence item.
  3. Introduce items, particularly in the Weapon Tree, which are more effective on melee characters than on ranged characters.
Side Note

Notice how the Melee counter and Ranged counter captains are the least 5v5 viable, especially the Melee counter captains. IMO it’s because when the hero pool is so much bigger and you’re running around the map so much, it’s hard for these captains to be as useful in a general sense. Pushing an advantage as Phinn is kind of weak, and Captains are not only generally picked first, but need to be able to flex into different team comps. Additionally, Melee counter captains often have someone else also doing their job; meaning it may be more useful for them to have a more aggressive playstyle to try and capitalise on mistakes.
Again, this is just my opinion.

Press F to pay your respects to Paragon.


Joule with crit build should be your soulmate

Sorry dude, I had to skip some parts -.-

I enjoy playing both melee and ranged. for me, its not the melee or ranged, its the mobility and speed, which is why i enjoy heroes like Reza. Ranged abilities, but technically still a melee hero. BF is an all time favourite. Idris can also flex to both.

Ranged against Ranged is kinda like melee against melee… its the skill of the player that determines how effective each hero is against another ranged.

I could argue Celeste counters all ranged. Ringo, as you pointed out is also very good. But why? The kit? Meet a bad Ringo and you’ll be cursing. Meet a good Ringo and you’ll be in Awe.

Take Skaarf. The free first hero everybody gets. A monster? or just plain bad? Even Pro’s on the main stage have dared to first pick PETAL, and first pick SAW… despite knowing the vast array of counters they have, due to their own personal skill level in knowing how to counter those counters.

i think they are heading in the right direction in terms of hero balancing. each hero thus far has a means of disengaging and dealing damage from a distance, be it ranged or melee.

I do agree on one point: more items. just more. more of everything. isn’t there a thread about item creation? there you go:-


Joule Mid with SB TT TM TM is the best thing that has happened since the release of Lance.

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But some heroes ARE specifically designed to do well in Melee vs Melee fights. Reim is the easiest example. If you are going in for a 1v1 as someone like Grumpjaw against Reim, you’re most likely going to lose.
If you are Ringo against a Vox and you have the exact same items, chances are you will win.
Some of these matchups are crippling, but that’s why you have teammates and draft.

and then I deleted this paragraph to reduce the amount of writing in this response

Point is, Melee carries and Ranged that counter ranged are both areas that have mostly not been tapped into, and there isn’t any reason that they shouldn’t be tapped into.
Because it’s interesting and fun (IMO).


Agree it is fun. But not so sure if there’s an imbalance of ranged counters. Sure they could make the next 2 heroes with dive abilities, or something similar to counter range, but I feel this would put ranged heroes as the minority.

As long as each hero has a means of engaging / disengaging. They should be fine.

I believe mid ranged heroes are the most rewarding to master, such as Malene, not quite ranged but not melee.
I believe Malene is the perfect example that they surely know what they are doing in terms of hero design. Just keep it coming, be it ranged or melee. It will balance itself naturally over the life of the game.


Mechanically demanding ranged heroes are terrible for me to play Except Malene. She’s fun, but mechanically demanding MELEE heroes are what I really love to play. I definitely agree we need more mechanically demanding melee heroes. I could argue Tako does require some skill to use well, but he is pretty busted…and stupidly easy to play with a little practice, but I want an assassin that can feel as fun to play as Koshka, but actually be difficult to be good at. BF does not feel like an assassin tbh. The closest to a fun mechanically demanding assassin would be Reza and WP Idris tbh

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isn’t Krul an example of a simple, yet mechanically demanding melee hero? Can be played anywhere from beginner to Vainglorious and still need a certain level of skill to be able to be effective at their respective tiers.

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Well technically any hero can be played well at any tier given the skill is there XD

Krul is tactically demanding, but not mechanically. You have to strategize with Krul, position. On the other hand, Reza is mechanically challenging, as he requires you to keep track of proc, manage distance, pay attention to cooldown, etc. to be successful, and doesn’t require as much positioning/stealth.


Ozo is the most mechanically and tactically demanding hero cause he is Ozo and good Ozo mains are God’s above even heavy weights like DNZio :ozo::ozo::ozo::ozo:


I stopped playing wp meele heroes for the same reasons you have mentioned, it just doesn’t feel rewarding. They have to build double defense just to face against wp snipers, assassins/most melees can entirely avoid a cp mages damage source by juking whereas the wp sniper has a consistent source of reliable damage which has no counterplay thus forcing another defense in the form of AP/MJ. Ap shuts down most of these melee DPS heroes and even those who depend on burst such as wp idris or joule can be shut down from a good Atlas which further makes diving hell. They can introduce melee based wp items which will make these heroes see more play in accordance to their designed playstyle


What’s wrong with building defense? It’s just something you should adapt to when playing melees. If you don’t you have to face to consequence of being just as squishy like ranged. How would you feel if a melee jumps on you in the middle of everyone and kills you instantly but survives after that?

It’s boring. Melee characters should be able to viably build 0-2 defence items just like ranged characters. Other than Grace and Joule, going past 3 offence items will generally get you killed incredibly fast due to how many mechanics exist to shut you down. Defence is a crutch that you are forced to buy due to how many things exist in the game counter you.

Firstly, I am incredibly biased and if they actually required a good play to make that work, I would be fine with that.
Secondly, I’m saying that Melee carries are incredibly risky throughout the whole post. My main example that I go into detail on, Seraph, was so squishy that she wouldn’t be able to engage by herself or she would be blown up immediately. She was the type to try and duel someone along the side of the teamfight and wait for your ally to make an opening for you. If you jumped into the middle of the enemy team with her, you would be DEAD.


The biggest problem with defense is the Nerf it received


The list of anti-melee and anti-range is bad.

First, there are a lot of captains that interfere with both equally. Phinn is an example, most dive melees can blow right past him, but if he parks in the lane he effectively blocks ranged characters from hitting anyone behind him because they can’t go near him without dying. Lance can do mostly the same.

Catherine is a big problem for ranged characters too, since she can go immune to damage, charge them and stun them. Same with Grace; she charges, slows, and makes her whole team resistant to her targets damage, and you need to immediately run from her (while slowed) or you get stunned.

Lorelai is generally more anti-range than anti-melee, since ranged character more often need to stop moving to fight, and are more screwed if they get slowed down. Most melee characters will just jump over her pools and run her down (I’d pick her against Reim or Rona, but going against any assassin with her is suicidal).

Then their are a lot of ranged characters who are difficult for other ranged character to deal with, particularly at low levels where auto attack range makes more of a difference.

I’m not saying that there aren’t melees who need work, but it’s not as skewed as you seem to think.

Yeah I agree with you here, something about a vox being almost as strong as a woman idris or Glaive AT MELEE RANGE pisses me off…
I used to be kinda a bruiser specialist, my Krul was just aids to be against and then I could play a very respectable maybe 8/10 blackfeather, Rona and Glaive at pretty high elo… in 3v3 of course ages ago. Now I pretty much hate playing all of these heroes unless i just play mega aggressive (which is the only means of success) and gank/ split push my way to victory which I find pretty boring.
I now almost always play ranged top Laners every game because ranged heroes don’t seem to have a downside besides the first couple mins of the game