Petal and Lorelai need some love

Vainglory Discussion Heroes, Builds, & Items
1

Literally. Lorelai currently has the lowest popularity of ALL heroes in VG , and many players tend to forget that she even exists. Some sort of small buff might help a lot. A skin too.

Edit: Changed my mind about the buffs. Just a very small buff on her B will do. and a skin.

PS: If the next update doesn’t have a new Lorelai Skin…

Petal sucks in 5v5. She needs some sort of buff or rework that will make her do something in fights. Her heal is so minimalistic even with Crystal power. Her Damage falls so hard in the late game and makes her Potatel. Her single target damage isn’t impressive, even in the early game in where she is meant to be the strongest. Other non-early game heroes out damage her which is not what Petal is MEANT to be. She is so niche and her winrate is one of the lowest this update.

This is my suggestion
V.I !!! : The Values might not be totally accurate so help me balance that out thanks.

Base Stats
Health up from 634-19(something) to 700 - 2157(just a random number but you get what I am trying to do)
Movement Speed up from 3.2 to 3.3
Petal is a bit too squishy to stay in the fight and do damage in the late game. This will fix that.
Even Reim is faster than Petal! She needs to catch up to travel around the map faster to do her job as a jungler.

Brambleboom seeds

leech range up from 8 to 9.

Cooldown down from 3 seconds to 2.5 seconds.
Makes it easier to regenerate pets when you lose them.

Duration on the map up from 12 seconds to 45 seconds
SEMC essentially removed so much of Petal’s Utility after this nerf when they lowered it to 12 seconds. This will make Petal much more useful to the team for vision when scout cams are on cooldown.

Crystal ratio up from 40% to 50/55/60%
This will make Petal not a potato in the late game. Her damage falls off too much that it is just a matter of time before she is deleted.

Base Damage down in the early game.
This will ensure she isn’t too OP in the early game.

Trampoline
WP amplification up from 15% to 30%
CP amplification up from 15% to 25%
This will make her WP path more viable. Also her CP amplification will also help her not fall off in the late game.

Remove extra basic attack range after jumping.
New: Petal gains 1.5 movement speed for 1 second.
More mobility = Faster travel around the map. This will help her catch up to her enemies and escape, making her ideal for ganking and split pushing.

Increase cooldown of trampoline slightly

Spontaneous Combustion
Healing Up(ratios)
Edit: I find this sort of unnecessary about the increase of radius of the ultimate.

All in all, this will make Petal a viable pick in 5v5 while not being too overpowered.

Edit: Also some of @Magnus0’s suggestions are quite good too and can be considered for a small rework for Petal to be appropriate for 5v5.

Edit: Lorelai needs some love, but she is quite balanced. Some skin will do. SHe does not need a buff on second thought, though the idea of having a reason to actually overdrive her B will be nice, considering it doesn’t do much on overdive.

TL;DR Or simply a buff for petal or a rework entirely

Please share your thoughts !!!
Thanks for reading!

5 Likes
2

Petals A doesn’ need anything done to it. It is already pretty good. As for the being squishy petal is meant to gank with her pets without engaging much. Now speed does need a fix to keep her moving in the jungle though telportation boots with cams can help

3

nice post.

I have been thinking of some ways to rework Petal myself. She has never been the same since her last ´rework´, which made her even worse than she already was back then.

I think the main problem with Petal is that she is way too lopsided. She is extremely good against some melees and extremely bad against everything else. The main problem is the survivability of her pets and Petals dependency on them. She´s literally completely useless without her munions, yet they die all the time, mostly to AoE skills killing all three pets at once. No other character in the game can be put in such a disadvantage stage so easily. Aside from giving the munions some massive shield buff or damage reduction against AoE or whatever, there are only two solution I think will work.

The first, and easiest to implement, is to bring back the tick system. So instead of having health, the munions have a number of times they need to be hit to die (it`s the same system scout camps use). Personally I was thinking something like 2, 2, 3, 3, 5 (+1 for every 100 crystal power). SEMC has actually tried this already, but then removed it for no good reason. The only problem this system had was that certain abilities could rip through munions health too quickly because they did DoT or because they just had many ticks of damage per second, like forward barrage. This can be solved by making it so that munions can only lose a tick of health after, say, 0,33 seconds after the last hit. So if a munion has 6 ticks of health, it takes at least 2 seconds to kill it by a foreward barrage, per pet. The damage of the munions might need to be balanced accordingly because a tick system like this would make them really hard to kill, especially for heroes that are mostly single target like Taka.

The second, and imo more interesting solution would be to make the pets completely invulnerable to all damage. They only die by using spontaneous combustion. This change would make the pets way more reliable damage sources, but they would also be pretty unfair against skill shot heroes like Kestrel. If the munions get hit by an ability that normally collides with lane minions, they would be slowed down instead of taking damage. So the munions can body block, but in doing so they become slower and thus easier to run away from. Not sure if this would be balanced, but all this is just theory crafting anyway.

If this change were to happen, the munion stats (only damage would remain since they don’t have health anymore) can be in Petals perk. Her current perk is just stating that she can control munions, while the stats of the munions actually scale with her A, making her perk literally useless. This also allows the devs to make the munion damage scale better in the game as it would scale with level, and not with her A.

Her A can then be cleaned up by removing everything that has to do with her munions. This allows the skill to get something new and fancy while not becoming too stacked as a skill, since only the explosion damage and minor vision would be left as applications of the skill. I personally would really like her A to have a healing aura again like it used to. It fits Petal because she is supposed to be a supporty kind of carry. I also agree with OP that the seeds need to stay on the field longer. 45 seconds seems good.

I think Trampoline itself is a nice skill, but the damage amp and range increase don’t make sense to me. There’s no reason why jumping should make her munions stronger or her range longer, and it also doesn’t fit her role as a support carry hybrid. I think the damage amp might as well be removed entirely, because it’s part of the reason why Petals unbuffed damage output is so terrible. Of course, Petal doesn’t need to have insane damage for her role, but she should definitely have strengths in other areas then. The range bonus should just be added to her regular range. Range used to be her main trait. Giving her her 7 range back would probably instantly make her wp path viable. I don’t think it would make her main cp path that much stronger since she wouldn’t deal much damage with her AA anyway. In fact, the only real benefit of longer range for her cp build would be that she can switch targets from further away, which I think Petal actually kind of needs because the munions are reliable and sluggish enough as is.

Just moving these buffs from her trampoline to Petals innate stats would make trampoline itself very bland though, so it should some added effect. Maybe the seed she leaves behind can be a special seed that deals more damage in a larger area? idk.

If I remember correctly, the healing on her A was moved to her ult during the rework disaster. That’s probably why the healing feels so week. If they bring the healing on her A back, spontaneous combustion can go back to being purely for damaging and slowing enemies down. I like the charge system though, that aspect definitely shouldn’t convert back. Honestly, I think her ult is probably the least problematic thing in her kit right now, so I think it can stay how it is now for a while.

So basically, this rework of mine would make Petal very similar to how she was originally designed, but with more reliable munions and an escape option. Honestly, I think that’s all she really needed back then, but the devs have ruined Petal instead and didn’t bother to fix it for like two years.

TLDR

either, bring back the tick system and call it a day

or

  • make pets invulnerable, certain skillshot abilities are converted to slows
  • clean up her A by moving munion damage to her perk. Bring back healing aura and longer staying time instead
  • move damage amp and range amp from trampoline to her base damage and range
  • some new property for trampoline instead of the buffs
3 Likes
4

I think that to make Lorelai good, her Splashdown needs to deal damage over time and her Waterwall must make the target immune to CC WHILE THE HEALTH BARRIER IS EXISTING.
For Petal, her seeds must be undamagable by basic attacks. The damn thing does deal damage but it gets mown down to fast.

3 Likes
5

Your rework actually makes quite a lot of sense… and @LamDumbasspro 's suggestion also makes sense. Maybe if we combine it together…
Invulnerable munions/or make it into ticks/ unable to damaged by basic attacks

Bring back healing aura to her a
The Healing scalings can probably be like this…
Heal Per second
Seeds Last a minimum of 2 seconds when many heroes stand around 1 seed.
30-50-70-90-120 (50% CP ratio) - Could probably use some tweaking but anyway

Bring her 7 range back

Increase her base WP power(It’s pretty low, you have to admit)

Remove healing from ultimate but otherwise stays the same

The new property for trampoline could be the one I suggested, having a slight speed boost after using it.

BTW: I think removing the CP amplification is fine but not the WP amplification because that is what WP Petal needs to be any effective

I also have an idea for her kit to sort of synergize with critical strike!
Trampoline(New effect)
Whenever Petal lands a critical strike onto an enemy hero/ jungle monster, the cooldown of Trampoline will go down by n%(not sure by how many)

This would essentially divide WP and CP paths and make her much more flexible.

And also to apply some of the changes I said…

That would make Petal viable and possibly even a Tier 1-Tier2 hero.

Which is a good thing :slight_smile:

6

Btw, if you haven’t noticed, Petal’s health is literally the LOWEST of the LOW among all heroes in VG. The small health buffs will still make her squishy but just slightly tankier.

To put it into comparison, Celeste, an EXTREMELY squishy hero has nearly 100 more health than petal at FREAKING Lv 12!!! You have to admit that that needs to be changed

Petal Health- 636-1934
Celeste Health- 649-20(something)

Also in 5v5 it is much easier to kill Petal’s Pets with 2 more heroes around so something needs to be done. And also her damage in the late game is HORRENDOUS(not counting ultimate), her scaling needs to be slightly better at least.

As a former Petal main I am saying this with as much truthfulness as I can and what I see is that Petal needs some sort of rework.

Thanks for contributing your opinion though :slight_smile: ! Your contribution is very much appreciated! I’ll definitely take into account to what you have said. My thoughts are not exactly the clearest at the moment.

1 Like
7

Lol no, no sniper would be able to do anything against pateto.
If Lorelai is not popular, maybe people doesn’t like her? She is strong enough. For pateto, she could see a buff, but be careful not to break her in 3v3. Making her minions invulnerable to AAs is broken.

1 Like
8

Great post!

I love Lorelai, I have always loved and stood behind that character. I truly think she’s one of the coolest heroes we’ve gotten.

1 Like
9

I´m not really sure what you mean by that first bit, about the 2 secnonds. The way it used to work is that every seed had a healing aura that healed you for an almost insignificant amount every second. However, by stacking seeds on top of each other, you could create a sort of healing ward, like a very long lasting Lyra sigil. 120 healing per second at lever 5 would definitely be too strong, even without a crystal ratio at all. Honestly, if they bring back the healing aura they can simply use the same stats as back in the day.

I think I missed this in your OP, but this seems like a good idea. Could be a decaying speed boost like with Tony to prevent Petals kiting from getting too crazy. I think with this new property, wp Petal would be too strong if she had her 7 range to go with it as well. So maybe it´s best if the range bonus does only apply after using trampoline after all.

This idea looks like fun as well. As I said tho, it would be hella OP if Petal also got her 7 range back. I think it needs to be one or the other, and personally I prefer having her 7 range instead of a fancy cooldown reduction for kiting.

By the way, I think Lorelai is just underrated. She really doesn´t seem to be bad at all. It´s just that she can´t safe an ally directly like Ardan or Cath, but then again, neither can Lyra in a lot of situations. this makes her a bit hard to use as a captain, she´s more aggressive, similar to Fortress even.

2 Likes
10

The reason that no-one picks lorelai is because she is hard to use well. she has all this cc but utilizing her perk means getting rid of a pool. so do you put the pools in safe postitions where you can stand safely and empower your abilities or do you put them in the fight to help your allies? is it worth getting rid of this pool quickly to make another one or can i afford the time? lorelai can block herself from being effective which is why she is hard.

Petal however is just bad at the moment. i think that her health definitely needs a buff. the op has a good idea for the buff to trampoline, giving her a movespeed bonus instead of attack range. or maybe increase her attack range and her munion leash rnage during empowerment. but increasing the cooldown would not be a good idea because it is her only kiting move and petal needs to do a lot of chase.

for her a i have no idea about the healing aura because i joined later but reducing the preparation time is something i really want to see. imagine puttiong dfdown a seed and watching the enemies get blown back BEFORE the next update comes out. also planting seeds would let munions pop out and aid her faster which would fix the problem of her munions dying too fast because you can bring them back quickly instead of waiting more. (also when you respawn you can get back into the fight quicker)

her ult is fine imo the healing is very good if used when empowered. maybe they could give it a slow to make kiting easier more. yes

anyway a movespeed buff would also be very appreciated.

2 Likes
11

Skill can damage them which means they can still be mown down with skills like Mortars, Buckshot, etc.

12

Wow, yeah, how a bout Ringo, Adagio, vox, saw, warriors in general, assasins? How many mortars do you need to kill them? 5? And buckshot bonanzas? 3-4? You are making petal only vulnerable to mages. I’m glad you are not in SEMC, the game would be broken af.

14

And I’m talking about seeds not Munions. SEEDS.

15

No, i won’t shut up If i think that those changes are bad. Making snipers waste abilities for killing seeds is just stupid, again, what about Ringo, Adagio and Vox?. As I said before, I’m glad they won’t do what you proposed.

16

That’s call a counter genius guest

17

Lol, Vox is supposed to counter petal and so are the high attack speed heroes. Also, you are not solving her problem, which are not snipers but the amount of AoE damage available in 5v5, so instead of buffing her against snipers, that again, aren’t the problem, buff her against multiple AoE hits her minions can suffer. You can’t propose a balance change if you don’t know anything about that hero

3 Likes
18

I’m not changing the Munions I’m changing the damn seeds. They deal damage but they got mown down too fast that they’re useless.

19

But they are not the reason why petal is weak in 5v5! Why would you buff a thing that it’s perfectly fine while not doing anything to the problem? It makes no sense.

2 Likes
20

And her HP. Ok whatever. Lemme contact my friend for the stats.

21

I think Petal is just too situational. I think rework is in call for her. Lorelai is fine she just isn’t played much because she doesn’t have a skin and is still relatively new. I promise you if Lorelai were to be buffed she is going to get nerfed to be weaker then now, it always happens. Then we get heroes like Blackfeather, Reim, and Kestrel. Blackfeather straight up lost his rosetrail, Reim is never played, Kestrel practically lost her passive, lost her ability to reduce the cooldown of her b-skill with AAs and I don’t know how many times her A-skill was reworked with different damage numbers and pierce. Lorelai don’t need that, next thing you know she’ll somehow lose her passive and the slow on her B.

1 Like