I am going to start calling this game Vaingreedy

Vainglory Discussion UI & Overall Environment
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DISCLAIMER: I am not against SEMC being paid for their work, nor am I against their monetization of a free to play game. I do, however, take objection to how it has been handled. Please do not jump the gun and just claim I hate the company or microtransactions in general. I am merely stating a common opinion on a multitude of business practices.

The constant increase in the number of methods in which you try to suck money out of the fan base is getting EXTREMELY excessive now. Sure, if a bunch of people dump money into this game to early acces purchase the new hero (Speaking of which, way to change your ways and embrace a better system, guys. Real proactive with that week of no-glory purchasing.) we can get some essence drops to MAYBE get the skin that we should have had months ago before the card system got summarily executed.

Don’t think I don’t see what you did there making an event based around a character while making that character only purchasable with cash. You ain’t slick, SEMC. You’re starting to seem downright slimy, however.

So outside of that, let’s list your methods of monetization in terms of least controversial to most.

Direct skin purchases: Rather expensive, but no harm in including them. I don’t blame you, especially since up until blueprints you had a VERY fair grind to unlock them as well. Not a big deal.

Direct Hero purchases, including the “Ice Only first week” on release: The first half of this is rather harmless but the second half is downright shameful, especially when games with a similar structure have far better business models. But this is by no means your worst creation.

LEWT BAWKS- I mean, “Chests”: Oh, 2017, you will forever be remember by gamers as the year of the Loot Box. These heinous glorified gambling simulators are in very poor taste, especially when the duplicates are not removed from the possible result pool, and are instead replaced with a pittance in not a SECOND, but a THIRD form of currency. Oh, don’t worry Opals, you’re next. Also, who else remembers the Glory Card Box, a “loot box” that was 100% transparent about its content and odds while giving the poorer players a fair, honest way to acquire items they desired while also requiring more work?

Opals: Now, you may cry foul as this is not a DIRECT monetization method, but it is still a disgusting part of the business practices. When you pay into that glorified roulette wheel hoping to get a jackpot only to wind up with that Bug Petal ® skin that you’ve gotten 5 times before, you’re granted a pittance of 8 or 10 opals, give or take. “Okay” you say “let’s see what we can purchase with this. Maybe it’ll be”
NOPE
The cheapest skin for opals is 150, with the exception POSSSIBLY of recent sales. Why do they want to slow down opal gain?
To give players “a sense of PRIDE AND ACCOMPLISHMENT” when they finally unlock that SE skin. Say it with me, folks! P R I D E A N D A C C O M P L I S H M E NT!
Aren’t the folks at EA Di- I mean, SEMC so wonderful giving us that pride and accomplishment? Do you feel PROUD to spend loads of money on glorified slot machines just to get some recolor as your consolation prize? If you answered no, come away with me my friend! Sadly, this list does not end here.

Talents: Again, these are not direct monetization options, but they are game-affecting items (Blitz is a Ranked mode and as such it DOES matter that they are usable in it) and are sold in bulk to people who pay real life money. Pay to win mechanics. And, surprise surprise, they’re also sold in loot box form!

Blueprint chests: Okay, seriously SEMC? You take away the card system, set people back heavily from their skins they’ve spent months farming cards for, and then you’re going to have the WORST drop rates (I’ve still only had one rare BP drop since the rework) and sell the components in- GASP- A LOOT BOX! The only thing sadder is this is not the worst thing you’ve done anymore.

Battle Pass: Hey, have you guys heard of a very popular Free To Play console and PC game called Fortnite (Battle Royale)? You know how they make all their money? They have the Battle Pass, with two versions. The free to play component has some free low rarity emotes and skins, secondary currency, and more. For $10 you can purchase a season long premium battle pass, unlocking some slightly better rewards and, if you do choose, a free renewal for next season! This sounds great on paper but you know what Vainglory has that Fortnite doesn’t?
Loot boxes.
Pay to win mechanics.
A third consolation prize currency awarded by loot boxes.
A competitive esports scene.
It is because of this that I award the Battle Pass the “BS Business Move of the year” award. Congratulations, SEMC. When I thought you had hit the bottom of the barrel, you opened it to reveal this was only the false bottom. There is still so much more barrel for you to scrape.

In conclusion, SEMC is attempting to have its cake, eat it, and copulate with it all at the same time, and it is wearing people’s patience extremely thin. I KNOW I am not alone here as I have received private messages from people agreeing with me.

I will now reiterate, I do not say SEMC should not be paid for their work, nor am I saying monetization is inherently bad. However, the business practices I have witnessed recently show nearly unprecedented amounts of greed, and the fact that I have to compare Vainglory to Star Wars Battlefront II just breaks my heart as I have played since the beta.

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Ok. This was nicely written and i agree with most of the points but i am also wondering what else they could do to fix these. Sure they could make another skin system (PLEASE) and reduce opal prices btu for the rest of this is there anything you suggest tha can give them enough money and still be accepted as a nice way to do so?

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Step 1 to improving your relationship with Vainglory players, SEMC: Remove the ICE purchased RNG Chest elements from talents, blueprints, etc. to make them a more acceptable presence. Or lower the ICE cost of chests. It won’t kill your profit. I personally would be much happier to support you if I saw you attempting to make things right.

Step 2, fixing the skin system: Nerf essence costs a little. Not saying drop them massively but make them less excessive or at the very least increase blueprint drop rates postgame. Or, another option, allow players to trade amongst themselves in a well-supervised manner.

Step 3: Lower older hero prices slightly so people don’t feel gouged. Allow purchases of the new heroes immediately for ~10,000 or 11,000 glory. Follow the League of Legends monetization path; when they were a young game they only sold skins, champions, and boosts, but they somehow became one of the most played online games ever made. And became a multimillion dollar corporation that joe has the backing of Tencent (for better or for worse, but that’s another story.)

OR;

Take the Battle Pass route, but refine it heavily to follow something like Fortnite’s model; give the player consistent small rewards even if they don’t pay. You can show them what they’re missing out on like Fortnite, but don’t assault them with it. If you’re not so aggressive they’re far more likely to support you.

Basically they need to pick a method and go with it. Not try to do everything.

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This is common Moba practice especially with making the hero slightly op on release than nerfing

Big practice in all mobile games that shifted into the good old Moba genre LoL and DOTA2 both do so.

Opals can be grinded for.

Runes in Dota2, runes in lol

You could always buy skins you are lucky there are things like this in game DotA you gotta buy your stuff.

If you do the math and wait for the sunlight your battle pass pays for itself

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Even though I agree on many of these points, I don’t think it deserves the Vainglory name to be called Vaingreedy.

There are far worse culprits, which give paying players an advantage in game. I still think Vainglory has achievable Goals for F2P players and offer reasonably priced deals without effecting the core gaming experience.

Honestly, I applaud SEMC for truly sticking by their values and keeping the core gaming experience based on skills, so anyone can become Vainglorious - many F2P players have proven this is acheivable.

A little off topic, but relevant:
I believe it is because of this F2P mechanic that many game players are NOT willing to play this game because they can’t pay their way to glory like other moba’s can. Imo, this is part of the reason why Vainglory has such a slow and steady rise in the active player base.

All your points mentioned, earn them money, which yourself even admitted you’re ok with. I don’t see an issue with how they’re handling things. It could be far, far worse, as other gaming companies do.

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I cannot speak for Dota 2 as I have very little experience with it (though all their heroes are unlocked from the start) but I’m going to point out the most popular moba (League) does NOT at any point sell their champions on release without having a non-paid option (7800 BE to purchase a newly released champion, reduced to 6300 after a week or two)

League does NOT have a third currency. It has keys for their chests, and awards keys randomly but also rewards them for non-toxic behavior. I recently got 3 completed keys for giving out honors to teammates in League.

Opals cannot be grinded without buying chests, they do not drop with enough frequency to be farmed consistently.

Runes are 100% free in League.

I got cosmetic pieces to drop in my first few games of Dota 2 including some very rare items. I never sold them because I quit the game (it was a bit too complex for me). League skins are also more fairly priced, in my opinion.

You are entirely free to disagree with every point I make and I will not judge you for doing so; I am just airing frustrations that prevent me from supporting the company.

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My point is they have so many methods but have taken no time to pick a specific one and make it actually attractive. I have free to play games that I have supported (such as League of Legends, I was an avid player and spent FAR more than I should have on that game back in the day) because I agreed with the way they ran their business. When they strayed from that path I stopped paying them.

I didn’t “pay my way to glory” so much as purchase the cosmetic stuff I liked. I don’t want pay to win mechanics at all.

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Then this becomes a subjective matter, what is unattractive to you, could be perfectly fine to another.

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They don’t now but league is constantly changing the currency system now it has changed to single currency. Back when leauge was infant you were sold characters for money on release. At one point they had Influence Points , Riot Points, and Blue Essence

They can’t I get opals all the time from missions free chests and sunlight so I don’t see your problem for having a way to get grindable skins if you want.

Nothing is 100%free in league and can’t be bought with money ever since the currency change.

Edit: @ZionSairin added more info

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The ‘semc is greed’ thing will always be apart of vg, whether it’s greed, experimenting to find something good or just throwing whatever new trendy thing is in games into vg, it’ll always have issues with people.

Since this is just ones own opinion really, just gonna piggyback off this thread and just say my thoughts on things, and essentially vent annoyance on some stuff

Me yapping on about stuff

The battle pass I didn’t know was a thing from fortnite, but I don’t think it’s such a bad thing in vg, from another thread people are liking the bonus rewards they’re getting from it. I don’t know much on it yet but it can be be better if they moved the boosts section into that and also finally took charms off this rent system it’s on. Don’t have a battle pass section and a boosts/charms passes section, just merge the two products together.

I do wish heroes were priced differently like how they use to have varying prices, like popular heroes expensive, beginner friendly heroes cheaper. Just want some variance not all 8000 glory each.

Chests, more so the pay chests not quest of daily chests, yea I’ve never liked them, and vg has quite a lot. Just never pay money for a chance at something, it’s a bad deal to me to pay just to have a chance at getting something like a blueprint or a skin or a hero. It’s an addictive feature in games that won’t be removed, it sucks that this is the main way they make sales or so it seems.

Blueprints and opals honestly feel like false hope. I get it they’re encouraging players to pay from the skin at its first price/it’s full price or grind but this grind just straight up is shit. They should just make skins obtainable through paying only, it’s better than these options that are there to just force your hand.

Even more yapping on about bp and opal grind

Blueprints comes from chests, those chests offer something else besides just the blueprint like the blueprint chest. Why do I have a chance at a hero in the blueprint chest? You can get a blueprint, skin, hero or essence, and these skins and blueprints are from a pool of 100+ to make it even better.
Opals, from what others have said sometime ago you can get 50 from the sunlight wheel fully done each season, other than that it’s drops from chests. I don’t know why it was made to be such a long long grind but it’s not great at all, if it’s for player retention not a great way to keep people playing.
What a grind!

Talents, well you can’t change that system now. They are honestly easy to obtain and I do like that there is a chest to guarantee these coins for specific heroes, that idea could honestly be used in a better skin system that is a grind but not an unfair grind. I still hate talents and they’ve destroyed brawls for me but I’ll just look at the positive in that system just for once.

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You can’t compare SEMC to EA though. EA got hate because it had lootboxes in a game that cost like $80 to begin with. I like how SEMC is doing its monetization, a f2p player can still get everything for free and SEMC still gets revenue.

What’s wrong with the battle pass? You get more ice than you pay plus a lot more rewards, and all you need to do is grind to season level 50 which most people can do in a week or two.

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Atm every single transformation of vg is related to making more money. Its the truth idc what people think. No logic goes against the fact that SEMC have changed. Players need a reason for playing a game or it goes down. Atm i dont have a reason to play vg anymore and i m sure there are many like me.

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SEMC’s CEO was an EVP at EA previously.

Just sayin’ …

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Oh that’s good. Oh LMAO…

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The problem is that many of us f2p dont have that initial 1k ice

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You can grind to level 40 to get that 1k ice and then get the freebies.

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You dont get 1k ice at lvl 40. Only 200 ice.

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Firstly @ZionSairin we already do have a F2P version of Battle Pass being the normal Sunlight system which does give a decent reward even though grinding is boring and slow as hell.

I hope as some point sunlight system is removed and replaced by the Battle pass and becomes fully F2P right now it seems like it clashing with sunlight you pretty much getting better rewards through battlepass than with sunlight system.

Fix the Sunlight system make it so it gives different reward to Battle Pass

A good way is make Battle pass only give Essence, blueprint ICE back and blueprint keys .

Sunlight sytem now gives Talent, Glory , Passes ( Double glory , Double fame , Taunts) and gives Rare keys for hero and skins.

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I think that’s level 30 .

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You sureeee? Anyone seconding him?