Kestrel Baron and Vox all were snipers according to VG. CP Kestrel isn’t a hero but build path. She was considered sniper. Vox was again specified as sniper though in I think spotlight he was called mage as CP. Baron again was sniper.
You said it: he couldnt tank, so in the strange scenario where he was out of position he could get destroyed. Also he has some hard counters while melee ones are mostly kitting, which wasnt effective against rona thanks to being able to burst everyone.
Varya was broken, i agree, but with Malene i meant that you cant use her as an argument against the other ranged heroes due to her kit having a lot more things than them, so its not a fair comparison. Varya was also a hypercarry, so when he became broken her late game was unbeatable.
What? i didnt say they have to be broken early lol.
Never said that.
Thats something i hate.
I dont play Dota. Also they have very different kits and items.
Because that would require them to tank all the damage while dishing even more damage. The reason why ranged ones can do it its because they actually dodge it, so if they get hit they die, melees dont, the only thing you would be able to do is running. Thats the difference between broken baron and broken kensei: if you cought Baron he would die (reason why idris was a hard counter), but the same cant be said about kensei. Against the ranged heroes you can always use assasins, dive comps etc to try to catch him and kill him, agaisnt melee ones you cant do that becasuse when they can hard carry they will just absorb all damage.
Never said that. In fact thats something ive been complaining about: a hero shoulnt be strong at every stage.
Kensei was much more vulnerable early game. Baron has a jump to get away from ganks. Baron also had more damage. Malene same thing. No weak early, no weak late game. Also Kensei was way too broken, as I said I don’t think those should be the examples but if you want to ok. Lyra. She was ranged, no way to attack her, she melts you in seconds. What was her weakness? Broken heroes don’t make good examples.
I can’t use Malene as argument but you want BF’s kit back and believe it isn’t broken? I believe that too and I believe Malene isn’t broken either. Having many things doesn’t always mean it’s broken.
But that’s the only way they work. If they’re not better than everyone early they are not viable. Why?
Tell me 1 lategame ranged carry with bad early game. And I don’t mean not have OP early game but actually weak early.
I don’t either. Don’t think VG = Dota and I don’t want it to be. My point was if they can do that why would it be impossible in VG?
What about Lyra? She didn’t care about positioning or damage. She just stood there and killed everyone. Also again higher damage than Kensei and again broken heroes don’t make the best examples. What about release Vox? How do you counter those? That’s not the way to go for balance. Why not take balanced meta and strive for it instead of giving example with a case where heroes had no counters (and Kensei DID have counter…)
You said this though. Again why can’t a melee hero be good at lategame with weak early? You believe warriors are restricted to early game. Why aren’t ADCs and mages restricted to late then?
I know, and thats somehting i already said i dont like, so i dont understand why you keep using that as an argument against me lol.
Yet baron was far easier to counter late game.
WHAAAAAAAT??? Where did i said BF was not broken? Where did i sue BF as an argument against warriors?
Right now no, but again, i never said she was broken now. I just said its not a good example as a ranged hero when trying to generalize as she has way more tools than any other hero.
Being better doesnt equal being broken. Because they dont scale to late game?
Varya, baron. Again, i never said it oke for late game carries to have a good early.
Never said it was impossible. I said they shouldnt.
Early game pressure. Ringo.
Because he would tank everything while outdamaging everyone.
IDK. they should be restricted to either early or late game, never both, but thats something ive already said.
I disagree strongly, I dont have enough time to write out a detailed response
You said that later. I’m responding to each point separately.
And as you said you don’t like having heroes be good at every stage I said I don’t like trying to balance heroes by discussing their most broken state yet you still did it. And then again what about Lyra? Was she any better than Kensei? Did she have ANY weakness? Only weakness I remember was ban phase.
I’m not talking about right now. I mean you want BF’s kit back right? I do too. And was he always broken? He was pretty balanced for a long time.
What’s it matter? She’s still ranged. Her class isn’t “Malene” it’s “Mage”. There’s overloaded melee kits and overloaded ranged kits. Doesn’t make them different category.
You’re right. Bad wording about OP. I mean of course they don’t scale lol. Why don’t they scale? It’s not something that can’t be balanced and again like it or not ranged heroes don’t have weak early game despite their significantly more powerful lategame.
Neither of them has bad early. Yes they’re weaker than most others early game but not that much weaker. Compare Krul’s lategame viability to Varya and Varya’s early to Krul’s. Talking about 5v5 by the way. Can’t give 3v3 examples as I haven’t played 3v3 in very long time.
Why shouldn’t they though? Just because you don’t want to? Why should any ranged hero have good early game then?
Kensei - early game pressure. You ignored Lyra though. How do you counter release Lyra? See? That’s a terrible way to compare heroes and attempt balancing.
Doesn’t need to happen always. Again for the 100th time Kensei was broken yes. Doesn’t mean he’s every single possibility. You yourself said you believe it’s possible to make like that but shouldn’t.
No, I don’t agree they should be restricted to any stage of the game. There should be good late and good early rangers as well as melees. Not good at everything though.
That’s not opinion and not my opinion lol. That’s how they are classified ingame. Or actually were before they removed the classes and left only roles.
Already explained.
Already answered.
I dont agree, they are almost useless early on.
Thats becasue of teamfighting. Krul can still win most 1v1 situations late game, even against Varya.
Already answered
Never said that.
I also used rona, though it seems you just ignored that.
Not talking anout kensei.
Thats what i meant.
When I asked you if you think it’s possible to make late game melee in VG you said:
Then you continue saying “Already answered” saying how they can’t be balanced. Why can’t they be balanced? Because there have been a few broken melees with good lategame? There have been just as many if not more ranged OP heroes + better early game.
Not really. They can still pick up kills with assistance from team. Lategame melees are just there.
I mean if Krul (KRUL) loses a 1v1 to an immobile mage I’d dare say this game is just a little bit unbalanced lol. He’s completely useless lategame.
What you mean with that? Anyway Rona wasn’t even nearly as broken as Kensei and Lyra. She was mostly good at split pushing and 1v1ing enemy in botlate. She wasn’t even that strong in teamfights due to being too squishy because of crit build and having to tank front line. Even if you revert her changes (I don’t remember if they did that already) she won’t be that strong anymore. She was strong because of the meta and bot lane pushing like crazy.
Who then? I gave an example with Krul and old BP. He was not at all broken and he had godly lategame. Why can’t it be balanced when it’s been done before?
Because you continued using the same arguments I already answered, so there is no point in saying the same time and time again.
See? I already explained it.
So can warriors.
Due to teamfighting. He is supposed to be weak in team fights. To argue about whether or not he is useless you have to use what he is supposed to do: 1v1ing. Not doing that would be the same as asking a glass cannon carry to tank.
That’s why I used her.
Who could tank everything while outdamaging everyone.
Because it’s never been balanced.
You yourself said you think it’s possible to do but don’t want it…
Yeah, lategame though? Not really.
Lategame is all about teamfights though. And even then, even in 1v1 scenario Krul, Glaive etc still suck because they can’t kill fast enough (and sometimes can’t at all).
Who could be dodged to lose stacks and early game had absolutely nothing to offer. A fair trade. You believe Krul was OP?
He is an early-mid game hero.
They can.
No.
Because their only counter would be early game.
Of course… like everyone else that was my initial point lol.
Much more likely for Varya doing good early than Krul or Glaive being useful late. Also Varya and Baron are just 2 heroes.
You say you don’t believe Krul was OP but at the same time he wasn’t balanced? How does that work?
And now their only strength is early game and it’s not even that much. What’s your point? Also it’s not only weakness. Unless we have only 1 good melee hero. And there’s heroes like Skye, Malene that excel at stopping just those heroes.
Because he depended on an item that wasn’t balanced.
You asked me for 1.
My point is that they should be buffed, be better in the early game, ranged hypercarries need to be worse early game, and warriors should never be hypercarries.
Many heroes depended to BP even now when it wasn’t as strong as before. That’s item problem not Krul one.
Yeah and as I said I don’t agree with either one. They’re not very good early game but they’re not bad either. Even if they were weak 2 heroes out of every carry in the game? Seems right.
Kensei was designed to be a lategame hypercarry though. I really don’t see why you dislike that idea so much. You talk like all heroes should be specified to current time the clock shows and be bad besides that depending on their class. I don’t agree. People want new unique heroes with something crazy about them and you can’t even get the idea of a melee being a carry. This is literally one of the least exciting things about a hero’s design.
They are really bad, specially baron, every hero can pressure him.
Not all heroes are hypercarries.
And it didn’t end up too well.
Already explained.
No, I said no warrior should be a hypercarry.
But balance is needed. I’m yet to see a warrior hypercarry not broken.
A HYPERcarry
Haven’t seen Barons this patch so can’t talk but Varya really isn’t. I’m consistently able to get kills against enemy laners and most Varyas I’ve seen also do well early.
Neither are Baron or Varya unbeatable anymore. Yes they outscale most heroes if not all but again other carries are able to compete.
How do you expect to see balanced melee hypercarry when there has been only 1 intended in VG history. Maybe BF was supposed to be then 2. Even then BF has had many patches where he was really strong late game with pretty weak early game without being broken. So there has been a successful melee hypercarry. He was switched to early mid after that though so now not really viable. Kensei is just bad. No other melee can even try to compete.
Already asnwered.
He has been struggling to be viable.
Never said they were. This conversation is over as obviously you can’t stop using things I haven’t said.
I said has been not now.
That wasn’t asnwered. I just said you can’t expect to see that when it barely ever existed. Only BF has had balanced hyper carry patches and it worked. 1 out of 2. Even Kensei wasn’t that far from balance after the nerfs and before the nerfs that killed him.
No matter what I say you can say you answered it anyway…
That was answered.
Now not? He finds hard to maintain a 45% win rate, and he is neither a warrrior nor a hypercarry.
He has never been balanced, he either finds hard to stay relevant of is op.
Yet he was toxic.
No, but most things were already answered.