No? It was a rhetorical question. I just meant how is it possible to know something that doesn’t exist.
This is literally what I said? I said he’s nothing now. I am talking about the past. Currently he’s just random generic hero that’s barely viable if at all.
No that’s just wrong. There have been plenty of patches where he’s been viable not OP and not underwhelming. He’s been balanced many times.
You find him toxic. That’s opinion. CP Taka is toxic they keep returning him. It’s not about being toxic but possibility of balance. I don’t like other heroes but I don’t demand them to get nerfed because I dislike facing them.
It’s not only may opinion, every pro player complaint about him. You said that heroes should be a clock and be weak/strong only depending on it, but kensei was exactly that. He could hypercarry and even when he was almost “balanced” he could outsustain and out damage everyone. For a ranged hero to carry he needs to dodge damage, for a melee hero he will just tank it, what counterplay is he supposed to have? You also have to add the mobility they have to chase (without it they would be able to hard carry), so he had, literally no counter in late game. That’s toxic. DNZio’s comment about him: “Kensei’s kit is a nightmare”.
Competitively, Bruisers are the class with the class with the greatest number of weaknesses. They can deal damage, but not instagib any squishies. They generally scale off in the late game, where the combined CC from the other team will shut them down and their mediocre tankiness won’t save them. Almost every squishy has self peel nowadays and you basically have to throw your hands into the air if you dash in and they dash out, giving up on any hopes of living. These weaknesses are exploitable by good players, so a bruiser needs to offer a large amount of power to be viable. Kensei, after his first patch, was balanced. He needed that much strength to become an ‘Okay’ pick in competitive play.
Now the problem comes in when we get bad players.
When a bruiser is good, or even viable, people will pick them up and wreck house with them because people in lower tiers are good at playing with to strengths, but bad at playing to the enemies weaknesses. Especially since abusing weaknesses generally involves managing CC. And so, these bad players COMPLAIN. On Reddit. I’m not saying I’m good, I’m just giving a massive generalisation that I think is somewhat accurate. Bad players have always existed and they’ve always pushed games in bad directions (Hi microtransactions). Are they justified in their complaining? Sometimes. But you can start to see the problem here.
Bruisers, similar to SAW, terrorise soloQ when they’re viable. However, unlike SAW, they’re a whole class of characters, not just one (I still love you SAW). Surprisingly, people LIKE PLAYING BRUISERS, especially with how varied they are. Glaive and Rona are the best example I can think of. A dash, B damage, C damage and sustain. Completely different play styles. It’s a damn shame they’ve been unplayable for the last SEASON or so (5v5).
The current meta is 3 captains with high base damage running at the 2 enemy squishies and trying to one shot them and shut them down. Captains. With high base damage.
If anything they should be bruisers, but SEMC has shat on their damage so hard that people do more damage on full tank Ardan and Flicker. I’d say wholeheartedly that I’d rather take 5v5, but with only Glaive. Healthiest meta possible, prove me wrong.
He wasn’t unbeatable after the last nerf before his fall though. Yes very hard to deal with lategame true but not unbeatable. Same thing with old Baron. And also if his kit is a nightmare shouldn’t he be in the same category as you put Malene then?
*You guys need to stop replying to specific parts of a response when you guys are quoting the entire response anyway. There’s so much scrolling lol.
From what I’ve read it you guys come down to the point that ranged heroes have more advantages than melee heroes and that at the same time ranged heroes are stronger in teamfights while melee heroes are weak in teamfights and do well in 1v1s half the time.
Here’s my take on it.
Ranged heroes are there so you can visually see them which causes them to have some form of an intimidation factor forcing you to back off or else you will get kited. You won’t have this ability as a ranged hero if you hide in something like a bush. The opponents can see you and if you attack early you might as well just be out in the open intimidating them or being bait for your team if they engage. If the opponents get too close while you’re in bush, you’re dead.
One of the most important changes this patch was husk becoming the main CP defense item instead of Aegis. This means that WP isn’t as affected and by the time enemies get to 1/4 of their health they are dead because WP heroes have more consistent damage than the separated CP bursts provided by assassins like Anka, or well only Anka.
This interaction gives melee heroes of any kind except the special counter picks like Kensei and Reim the “flanker” status. You basically split push all game getting attention and being able to do 2v1s and 1v1s easily if you’re good at the hero and are not getting hard countered. If you feel like teamfighting you have to come in from an angle and try to isolate one carry and hope your team is going to do something with that massive advantage you provided them.
But that is the thing: teams. Any ranged WP carry can easily carry a match if there is someone in front of them soaking up all the damage. Same with a CP carry. But WP melee as mentioned already have to soak up the damage and deal at the same time making SM a must have, unless they have built in lifesteal (which for some reason they don’t ). When playing a WP melee you have to have a healer/barrier provider, hypercarry mid, CC and whatever feels right (the jungler). WP ranged have so much flexibility on any team they can easily be first picked without truly ever getting hard countered.
But WP ranged carries even though they have some CC they don’t have the sustainability that melees have. Melee heroes also have CC at their disposal at times as well. I was reading one point about how Kinetic is way too mobile and has CC, but that is such an over-exaggeration. She has one dash that you can use every 8 seconds IF you build SSW. Her stun lasts for less than a second as well. It’s primarily used for chasing or punishing heroes that just went in too deep. But heroes that do go too deep have tools of their own like Kaiten or Rose Offensive.
So basically its pretty obvious that WP ranged heroes have everything while for melee heroes you have to work harder. But with this much harder work the moment you master this high skill cap you become unstoppable on any hero, except maybe mages. As someone that plays lots of melee especially Lance and WP Idris I can say that I can confidently play any hero that is not a mage except Sam (3v3 jg meta pulled through with that). Being a man of rotations is important when playing melee heroes in general because you don’t have that pressure that ranged heroes can provide but the moment you get off one flank or the first base attack, you win. Unless enemy Silvernail has SB TB TT TM TM but that’s different.
Agreed with most points but 2 things. We are replying to each point separately because it’s easier to understand what we mean though I get you it’s really long lol. The other thing is we kinda switched the topic to “can a melee warrior be hyper carry”. I mean with current heroes no except for Kensei if he’s good but we’re talking in general.
Compared to Malene: root + 2 slows (one of them AoE) + barriers + speed boost + invulnerability + empowerment in AA + AA reset. Kensei doesnt have an overstacked kit, though he may have too much dashes (but they are short ones).
But there’s something else. Baron was OP in 3v3 which is much different and was available for much longer time so people naturally can work better against him because of experimenting and experience. Kensei was completely broken for 1 patch and with 2 bans he barely ever went through ban phase. Baron could sneak through much more frequently and again different gameplay. It’s much easier to snowball him in 3v3. Kensei was’t really that strong in 3v3 even in his best patch.
It’s true she has many things but she’s also mainly single target focused and has short range. It’s not always about the amount of stuff you have. She might have an overstacked kit but it’s balanced (not on release of course) by other things. Kensei has pretty good AoE for a warrior which is basically the opposite of Malene with her single damage style mage.
I wasn’t talking about 3v3. I’m taking the mode they are supposed to be abalances for: kensei 5v5, baron originally 3v3. Kensei has been broken in 5v5 for 3 patches.
I agree, she isn’t op, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t stacked, which is what I said.
@SideRaiderr is one of the few people in the community that I see consistently getting analysis spot on. Melee has to soak up damage from the get go unless they are so op they can kill without soaking dmg (aka assassin). Not to mention, melee has to soak up 2 forms of dmg (aa+ability) while ranged has the benefit of not having to worry about aa as much where melee is concerned. Melee users ultimately have to stop thinking their heroes can go toe to toe witg ranged heroes in some situations because they just can’t. It’s a built in part of how distance interaction works. Flanking is what melee is for, pushing is largely what cp is for. Different abilities can help heroes flex but ultimately, if the game was perfectly balanced we’d only have 2 types of heroes: assassins, and tanks. It wouldn’t be fun. Certain things are just weaker and certain things stronger, and melee is always a bit weaker than ranged in a world where this game is in any way functioning as a physical world analog.
To be blunt: if you want the strongest hero in a game, pick an aoe ranged hero and figure out how to surpass their shortcomings. They are always going to be able to beat any hero (in theory) due to their inherent properties, if played with enough skill and given enough situational balance. Every other hero is situationally stronger in some situations, but that’s reality.
It’s also why I’d rework heroes like Baron to be a structure buster with environmental effects and some damage if I was to redo the game, rather than give him a damage role, because aoe ranged heroes cannot be given stats or they must be nerfed, and that goes for all ranged. It’s just part of the way of making the design fair and making games fun rather than like real life where if you come to the fight with a knife and you don’t have situational advantages, you’re probably going to lose, and the guy with a gun is going to win.
It’s also why the energy nerf is appropriate for cp, so cp ranged doesn’t have ‘unlimited bullets’. Lol if it was up to me I’d make CP AA’s cost energy also.
For game designers, it comes down to the fact that a guy with a katana is unlikely to win against a guy with a bomb, but what mechanics can we build in to make this NOT true. Of course I’m sure game designers don’t usually literally think like that.
I don’t understand this, what would you do to him?
That’s not a fair comparison: abilities have both AoE in most cases and a lot more range than cp AAs. Also, they have a lot more damage. I’m actually glad you can’t do that because that would destroy a lot of heroes.
I’d change him so his mortars and rockets did more dmg to objectives, but did less damage to heroes and minions, but i would also give them a knockback effect on top of a bigger slow. Baron’s ult would be the only ability I gave massive hero dmg to. The others would do some dmg but he would mainly be relegated to a more support oriented role where he could flex to doing some dmg with his rockets and mortars whether wp or cp but his main selling point would be that he couls bounce enemies all over, while making it hard for them to reposition, screwing strats while his teamates mopped uo, while a skilled baron could set up bounces into his ult, getting his massive dmg kills with pure skilled timing.
As for why I would do that (change cp aa’s to be affected by energy, it’s because that way you could control cp heroes easier in general, making it easier to balance cp items. Think about it: CP AA heroes are technically the strongest heroes in the game. They get a boost to everything essential from 2 item tree branches. Every hero that has WP AA’s has to get items from 3 item tree branches to get all bases covered. It’s why all the cp AA heroes ususally have weaker stats.
Well the weaker stats they are forced to have hurts in other ways like having a proper cp bruiser or cp melee hero in general. With energy being the deciding factor, you could limit hero ability availability and AA availability by controlling energy pool and regen. You could scale assassins who relied on abilities much easier by giving them small energy pools with moderate to high energy regen (forcing them to duck in and out of fights with their high power, like they’re supposed to now, able to use all 3 abilities in a big combo and only 2 to 1 to finish off before they have to duck out and regen, instead of staying in fights indefinitely once they get some defense or sustain, like they do now). You could make assassins who relied on AA’s with strategic abilities by setting AA energy cost higher than their lower ability costs. Things like that.
As for Baron, that’s the point: it’s hard for him to be a hypercarry in a fun way because he is ranged and aoe. He had to be nerfed from the start. And any time he gets too strong he isn’t fun for the opposing team…because he is ranged aoe. And no he would be useful without his ult because he could damage enemies less but also enemies would have a harder time damaging him if he was skilled, actually making him more dangerous but not simply through sheer power. Not to mention he would be destroying turrets and objectives faster than others and pushing off enemies trying to defend or take them easier as well. And I would do this specifically to Baron because right now Baron as a good hero isn’t fun for anyone. Note zi said Baron as a GOOD hero. As in if they made him the best HE can be while keeping his weaknesses, he still wouldn’t be fun for anyone. Since his usage is focused around his power, and since as an aoe ranged he is inherently more powerful than every other type of hero in this game, he has to be nerfed, has to be slow and weak until late game, and if he’s a good baron, the enemy team has to be decimated by him at that point, or else he isn’t worth it as a hero. It makes him hard to make fun as a hero, the way he’s built now, because again, this game is based in some real life principles and in real life aoe from a range (a.k.a. bombs, nukes) is definitely beating almost everything. I would nerf him by making him need more skill, with more average power and a power spike, rather than massively weak & a struggle at the beginning, and masively strong and simplistic at the end.
I mean they are supposed to be balanced for both modes. Also they were OP at different times so you can’t judge as if it was same patch. And he wasn’t broken for 3 patches. He was very strong but not broken after nerfs.
She is yes. How does that exclude her as a hero in her class though?
Ult is AoE stun. A hitting 3 people grants him immediate barrier and is a basic attack. With how spammable it is it’s pretty good. I mean of course he’s no Celeste but for a warrior his AoE is really good.
). When playing a WP melee you have to have a healer/barrier provider, hypercarry mid, CC and whatever feels right (the jungler). WP ranged have so much flexibility on any team they can easily be first picked without truly ever getting hard countered.