I might be misunderstanding wp but i have felt that wp heroes are meant to only be effective in their range aa, and cp heroes are meant to be effective outside of it with little counterplay in it. This also means that wp has a natural struggle at the start of the game to snowball unless they get a good dive. In light of this I almost exclusively play wp as a mid-late game style. Sometimes you get the early ganks. It just feels like wp is expected to do more than it can. I don’t expect to hard carry wp unless i get solo dives and it irks me particularly when my wp heroes try to take on a ranged hero without a dive or surprise attack. Ranged does have a natural advantage in general. That’s just life. Why guns are used instead of knives except situationally and all that. I only ever pick wp situationally.
Because they fear certain roams. DE can be like that because you can control It effectiveness in those heroes by the Crystal ratio, while WP is always 100%, so heroes like Ardan, Lance or yates may abuse It, and thats what they fear.
That can be controlled by making BP be more effective with more WP you have (bonus). My point is it shouldn’t be the same for melee and ranged (the extra damage required for ranged is literally meaningless). There’s no way melee would be able to use it more effectively and not be considered broken. But when ranged hero does the same thing AND is doing it from range it’s not broken.
Thats the thing though, SEMC is afraid to make specific items or item changes for a certain class (melee).
The only items that they actually made for a class was the contracts for roamers.
Why cant we have a shield/armor plus BoE starting item for melee. Not even that but starting items for junglers, ranged laners, melee laners. Wait how about just more specific items for different classes.
Edit: Item tree expansion
That comes with another problem: they are also tanky. The times a melee Hero has been able to match a ranged carry’s damage that Hero has been broken (Idris, BF, Kensei, Rona).
I agree that It shouldnt be the same de ranged and melee heroes, but finding a balance is difficult. They dont want to have another Kensei but with all melee heroes.
Yeah I know they’re afraid of that but in a way it still is. It’s not ranged specific but they benefit so much more from it. I want jungler items and more melee/ranged specific items too. I don’t see why that would be a problem.
They’re not even trying to find balance though. For them it’s okay as it is. People always remember and hate so much more when melees are OP for some reason. But on the other hand when they’re not good or viable people usually forget them. I don’t know if it’s just me I just always felt ranged almost always had advantage in VG. Not talking about single cases but like all together. I don’t mind if they don’t change BP and instead find other way to balance them but currently I don’t like how it is. I know it’s hard to balance but it should at least be tried. SEMC can’t just always ignore what they don’t like expecting it to fix itself.
I do agree with this guy. I mean u are there behind ur roamer happily stacking up. That puts the melee heroes at a huge disadvantage. The fix for that is not even that hard LMAO.
Why not bring down the cap for bp stacks for melees.
25 for melee and 35 for ranged. (for the same amount of increase in wp).
And now everyone is happy.
Its almost like they dont want to do anything.
I thought it was obvious after the BF changes.
Because they offer less counterplay than ranged ones, reason why Kensei was toxic.
Agree, I think part of the reason for this is that they doesn’t have flashy kits people tend to be amazed with. Also, at least for me, ranged ones, specially snipers are usually more interesting (for me snipers > assassins > mages > roams > warriors).
That’s because they have an advantage. MOBAs then to favour more ranged heroes over melee ones not because of balancing, but because the range makes them fit better.
IMO, one of the main problems is the relation warrior > assassin > ranged > warrior. Right now this relation is broken, warriors aren’t that good against assassins as their mobility just allows them to kite warriors relatively easily and their burst usually is too much for them to handle it well enough.
They think that as long as they are somehow viables they don’t need to change anything, which leads them to not have a specific job and be in an awkward position.
This is absurd + didn’t they make the updating only on the needed files instead of the whole game? Not to mention this is most likely values in the apk itself. Also they released already 3 downloadable patches, one like two days ago. It’s super confusing to have one values applied and other written, especially when it’s not a single item, but a bunch of them.
Omg meee tooooo
Snipers > Dualists > Lyra > Roamers > Brusiers > Mages > ADCs
Melee heros should be stronger than ranged due to the sheer amount of CC thats in the games. Plus with the 15% AA reduction on Metal Jacket, most melees are AA and WP reliant which is even worse for all melees
What’s the difference between ADC and sniper? (I don’t play other mobas).
That isn’t different with snipers, they are also AA reliant.
Adc is a marksman such as ringo or gwen while sniper is kestrel or CP kinetic. Thats the way I classify it but there always google.
Adc have a range (kiting) which is most of the time better than melee. Melees have to get into Adc range which puts them into a harder spot.
For me sniper = ADC i guess, but i dont consider CP kinetic a sniper. My categories are simpler: Sniper, mage, assassin, warrior, support.
Yes, but the damage reduction on MJ hurts them as much as melee heroes. The only hero not affected by it is Joule as he B isnt considered AA.
I don’t agree melees are worse in that way. They need much better positioning, dodging, timing to actually follow their target not get peeled off and at the same time deal damage and not get poked to death before engaging. Kensei was way too broken that’s true but he literally deleted entire teams and was basically glued to you. Not fair comparison. Just terrible balance there. Varya and Malene are around the same time as him and they did the same thing. While snipers in VG are basically outdamaging everyone, often even assassins. Unless they get caught they offer much less counterplay.
I find melee heroes’ kits muuuuch more fun and unique (not more effective though just about fun). What I meant about VG is that generally with some exceptions melee heroes can’t carry like ranged and we all know everybody and their mother wants to carry. There is literally no melee that’s good late game (not supportive role). BF and Kensei were and they got completely destroyed because of it. Krul used to be lategame god now he can’t even touch anyone lategame. SEMC just don’t let lategame melees. Problem is most of them aren’t even strong enough to win just by early. For me warriors > assassins > mages > roams > ADCs
Basically what I said above. It’s kind of similar to the previous point so I just replied there.
Yeah I agree the rock paper scissors kind of balance isn’t there. Assassins just mock warriors by dancing around them while sometimes not being able to outdamage carries. Warriors unable to kill ranged heroes unless it’s around 6 mins or before in 1v1 is kind of weird too. They’re supposed to be major threat in teamfights because they offer high damage and get protection. Right now though mages and ADCs have more CC than some warriors so I don’t understand what a warrior is supposed to do. They don’t deal enough damage, they can’t chase, the can’t survive, they can’t provide protection for teammates or utility through CC. Or they can do a bit of everything and end up getting outshined in half of those by a single hero which makes them again barely viable and usually the worse option.
Exactly but that’s so bad for people who actually want to play the heroes.
I mean it is like that currently. There’s not more stacks but ranged stack “harder” as they need more damage but that just doesn’t work. They’ll still stack it up faster. Either melees need another way of stacking and not doing damage or ranged should get less damage for the same stacks in my opinion. Don’t see how else it would be balanced.
In VG every ADC is classified as sniper. Including Kinetic Kestrel Ringo Vox Skye Baron etc.
I dont agree, when attacking an enemy, due to their low range the area they can be in its a lot moe reduced than for a ranged carry, menaing that he hs a lot more positions to be, so positioning with him is more important. the positioning difference of a melee hero is usually not much. Ranged ones can also be punished harder for bad positioning due to being squishy.
When rona became op she didnt offer counteplay too: she was tanky as hell, with both burst and sustain.
Varya agree, malene i dont becasue she isnt a fair comparison to any hero, her kit is just too stacked to compared her.
For me, most warriors are boring to play.
Thats the result of rnage + positioning. While a ranged hero can dodge damage and reduced the damage he takes (kitting), a mellee hero has to be in a close range, usually in the middle of a fight, so for them to carry they would need to be able to survive all the damage while dealing even more damage, which is what happened with kensei and the reason why when a melee hero can carry a game its usually considered broken. Ranged ones usually have a better late game scaling too.
For the reson i explained: they wold need to be able to tank everything while dishing more damage. Thats broken.
Thas a problem, true.
Thats why warriors are weak, they cant beat those who counter.
If that ranged hero is an ADC i dont see any problem, they are single targeet specialists.
Thats something ive been complaining about. I dont get why ranged heroes need that much cc. For me, mages should have 1 cc (stuns), ADC mobility and low cc (slow?), but instead of that we have kinetic, with high mobility, slows and stuns, Malene, with everything. The only exception for this is Silvernail as he has no mobility.
In general, for me warriors need to be better early game and then, during the late game, transition to a more defensive position. IMO, they should never be able to hard carry consistently.
Though CP kestrel is not consider sniper and same with baron and vox.
I didn’t mean only where they stay but also movement. Ranged heroes have more potential position to stay but most of them are completely unviable so shouldn’t even be considered. While at the same time the same range you mentioned makes them much safer to play. As I said getting caught is different case but then not many heroes can survive no matter ranged or melee.
But that’s the same with ranged heroes. It’s the same. Yes when Baron was OP he couldn’t tank damage but he wasn’t even getting hit and it’s AoE so practically they do the same thing. Both not balanced and it’s not because of their range.
What do you mean? I didn’t compare Malene to Varya just meant that both of them offered no counterplay if the player is good at them same as Kensei. Except Kensei actually had bad early game.
Yeah personal preference. I find ADCs boring.
Ok I don’t understand the double standard. Why is it okay for melee to be broken early and unusable late but not the other way around? And for ranged it’s okay both ways. They have to tank the damage if they’re main carry but ranged don’t even get hit because of range and protection. It’s different but in actuality it’s the same thing. Both don’t die and both deal damage. Yes Kensei was broken and BF was broken on release so were Varya Malene and Lyra and so was Lance. Every type of hero could be broken and I don’t think we should use those as the thing to compare to. With old BP Krul was useless early and godly lategame. It offered counterplay and wasn’t OP. Why is that a problem to have such things again. Also currently ranged heroes who have broken lategame don’t have bad early so I it’s even worse. And my friend told me in Dota (I think?) main carries are melee. If I don’t remember correctly you can tell me but I don’t see how with all the crazy things possible to have in a MOBA having a lategame melee heroes would be impossible.
Because ADCs are explained as heavy damage dealers that are able to counter enemy tankier opponents in teamfights while warriors are the best unit by themselves but they struggle in teamfights. They are not immobile, they deal damage, they are tanky. Kinda jack of all trades master of none. They’re the best 1v1 heroes in MOBAs.
Yes it’s like that currently. But why? Why can we have early game ADCs and mages but not lategame warriors? Why can we have ADCs and mages good at any stage of the game but not warriors? They aren’t “unbalanceable”.