Can you base the death timers on frequency of deaths instead of duration of the game?

Vainglory Discussion UI & Overall Environment
41

I don’t think you should calibrate your suggestions to the first couple months of 5v5… matchmaking was bugged, and people were (are!) still learning how to just play the mode, full-stop. You saw a lot of gameplay situations out of control of players leading to bad K/D/A stats… Map awareness and meta-knowledge is still improving for lots of folks who aren’t used to it, and it wasn’t uncommon to see a T4 stuck defending their lane against a T9 turret pusher, with no help in sight. Your choice there is to either lose the game or die trying…

As matchmaking recovers, and people get sorted better, and people just learn what the heck they should be paying attention to and doing on the Rise, the situation will improve.

I think the spirit of your idea is to discourage dying, which I agree with, but the death timers are first and foremost a game-length and volatility mechanic, and only secondarily a player behavior mechanic, so they’re not really the appropriate place to target feeding. If you want to address risk/reward calculations, you have to look at what effects player performance without changing the meta flow of gameplay. Stuff like gold, items, and stat buffs, while balancing against snowballing.

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42

Basing the death timers on death shifts accountability to the people dying instead of the whole team. Yes, it discourages dying, and rewards dying less. that’s the whole point.

Yes, this idea came as response to the broken 5v5 matchmaker. People frivolously dying has always been a problem, but I didn’t realize how wide spread it was amongst the lower tiers and new players, untill recently, which also made me realize how flawed the gold bounty system is.

The gold bounties are a hidden mechanic. People don’t even know about them, as well as their impact, because the consequence isn’t evident to those who are not technically savvy to the game. It punishes less knowledgeable players in a way that they don’t even know they are being punished. That makes it a horrible mechanic due to lack of transparency.

A compounding death timer, on the other hand, is felt directly and seen immediately.

Furthermore, it also counters throwing. People can intentionally feed a team to troll with the current system. That wouldn’t be the case with a death timer, because you couldn’t spam deaths and those deaths wouldn’t immediately empower the opposing team.

Quite frankly, it’s better than the current bounty system, because it would combat throwing, discourage frivolous deaths, reward dying less, and make for a much more impactful game. Also, it wouldn’t empower snowballs as greatly, because to leverage the advantage the opposing team would still have to advance to take farm, instead of have farm come directly to them via feeders. Given, with enough deaths the opposing team would have the numbers advantage to do so.

Meaningful death consequences is what make games more impactful and rewarding over the long term. Look at Rules of Survival once you die you’re out of the game completely. Hardcore mode in Diablo was the same, you could spend years building a character, but once you die it’s GG.

This is nothing more than issue not liking change…even if it is for the better. Gold bounties are such a flawed system but people accept because that’s always how it’s been.

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43

The core problem is that someone who has never died has the same death timer as a feeder with 12 deaths.

When you die lategame you should be rewarded for your safe play instead of thrown in with the feeders.

44

Combine both. Let multiple death reach the current lategame cap and low deaths be like early game deaths.

45

Might sound kinda like a rant… but eh, I’ve followed this thread for a while and have to get this out there.

Just think. Vainglory is a game designed for MOBILE. And it has an abundance of casual players. Think, how horribly it would affect the gameplay. I’m a casual player and would consider deleting VG off the instant it gave me a 2+ min respawn timer when I have only 6 deaths. The damn game lasts 15-20 mins. Kills are abundant in low tiers. It’ll make each game have people spend more time waiting to respawn than actually fighting around.

You may be a high tier player or not. I respect your skill either way. I also know that up there games depend more on objectives and end up with drastically less number of kills than say a t4-t5 game with 25+ kills per team. I’m still hovering around t6g, and my games have their fair share of deaths. And it would suck balls if we got respawn timers based on deaths as even dividing the whole deaths 3 ways gives you 8 death per person and a golden 6 min(acc to your list but lets cut it in half and say 3 mins) respawn timer on me. GG.

Games would then be:
Start
Identify the late game beast on enemy team.
Hunt him down recklessly.
Sacrifice yourself at times for that kill if needed.
Win. Coz he just deleted VG as he got sick of respawning.
Basically, delete Baron from VG at the very least.

The system you propose is more messed up than bounty(which I’ll welcome any day) system.

Remember the game is not just for the elites.

There are ways to report these feeders. They’ll be taken care of sooner or later once the reports pile up. A 15 mins LPQ will do the trick of the respawn timer if they take their feeding to the extreme.

Just to give one last example of my mentality when in t4 or so:
I used to play Captain a lot. Protect my carries. Sacrifice myself to save them if needed so they can fall back to and defend our turret at the very least if not win a teamfight.
Death is inevitable in these games, when everyone just wants blood.
If the game treats these deaths against me and sets me up with a huge respawn timer… Y’know I have other stuff I can do on my phone.

Sorry for the rant.

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46

Death timers are not a system of reward. They are a way to control the flow of the game. Arbitrarily saying something “should” be something without actually explaining why is just silly.

Not dying is rewarded by gaining a lead on XP, gold, objectives and moral. Seems pretty rewarded to me.

2 Likes
47

The problem is lategame death timers are disproportionately long while early game death timers are a joke.

When you stay alive for 80% of the game and then die you face almost a minute of respawn time. While someone who died 4x early game may have less total respawn time for those 4 deaths…

I am not stating OP is right but I do follow the reasoning and somewhat agree

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48

I get the reasoning in that it sucks, but I haven’t really seen any reasoning toward it making the game actually better since it would totally screw up the game.

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49

Keep in mind it gives late game comps a chance to fight back if the enemy team is an early game comp and dominates early on. They will most likely have more turrets than you, so these longer death timers rewards you for surviving long enough to finally fight back. Also, games would last at least an hour if death timers did not increase for everyone based on the time of the match.

50

The problem is that you’re only focusing at one situation. You also have to think of all the other situation your idea affects. What if the enemy team is just dominating the early game? This happens a bit even in high tier play and even then sometimes those teams lose from an insane comeback. I understand where you’re coming from, but your idea does way more harm than it does good. Not dying is already rewarding as you get to spend more time farming for gold, xp, and get more items to help scale a hero which many be LATE-GAME ORIENTED. And there is already a counter-snowball system in place cause if it were not, snowballing would be THE meta.

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51
  1. more consecutive deaths = less gold bounty, so no they would barely be mpowering the enemy if u just payout like 80 gold lmao (and if you say “bUt 80 GoLd Is StIlL gOlD”, just remember you can get that from a few minions.)
  2. if you kill yourself more, the longer you don’t have any say in the game. your system does NOT counter throwing/feeding. It only makes it worse because then there are larger windows for an ace
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52

I’ve thought of multiple situations, and the one change satisfies multiple solutions. The strategy of combating early game comps would be exactly the same as it is now: play defensively till you scale up.

You guys are ignoring that the death timers would actually better for those who take minimal deaths. It only starts to affect people that die frivolously.

However, I’m sorry, but if your team mates eat double digit deaths in the early game you are not coming back. A compounding death timer wouldn’t exacerbate that.

53

Feeding with either system allows more chance for an ace. Quite frankly it’s less chance with a death timer because the team mate that only dies once will respawn faster, allowing for a smaller ace window.

It’s only a problem if multiple people are eating mass deaths, which in either case you are losing anyway.

54

Yes. Even a system like that would be better. Gold bounties are flawed because it’s a hidden mechanic. Not a problem at the high tiers but definitely an issue in the low and mid tier. Quite frankly, late game timers for some one who’s dies only one is punitive.

I don’t believe someone should be punished severely for natural deaths. However, there should be a better detourant for someone trying to consistently 1v5 and something to stop throwing.

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55

Can you name any examples where this would be positive at all outside of trolling? it is still negative even then. 1 minute respawn at only 5 deaths is ridiculous. This decimated heroes with little to no escape such as Skaarf or Celeste and very late game oriented heroes like Baron to the point where u might as well delete them. Even pros would be furious if something like this were to be implemented. You talk about double digit deaths yet punish 5 deaths very heavily. What if you just have a bad early game with your late game hero? Oh well this would just remove any form of comebacks that would be possible with the current system so you might as well accept your instant loss. This would do nothing to trolling and would just punish everyone else.

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56

Pros don’t often eat double digit deaths. What are talking you about? It wouldn’t effect high-end game play much at all, and actually would be more forgiving for late game deaths.

At the low end it would quickly correct feeding, and it would completely shut down feed-throwing.

Do you guys all really eat double digits deaths so often that this concept would cripple your game play?

I actually think death timers would make the game much better, and skill based, because death would be much more consequential. Similar to rules of survival and hard core mode on Diablo.

Again, the gold bounty is flawed, particularly for new players because quite frankly I don’t think most even know about, and late game timers punish people that died once the same as someone who died 20 times.

It combats more than just the problem of feeding and throwing. It also also alleviates the impact of late game deaths for those who played the first two phases well.

That’s one fix that solves three different problems and two different mechanics making it a more streamlined solution.

57

Do you think Vainglory must be balanced around t8+ players? Well… Think again.

Rules of Survival… Comparing it to VG. RoS is a game of Survival. You go in knowing that YOLO. And as soon as you die you can start up your next game unlike VG where it’s a team one and the Vain decides things. Even squad games in RoS doesn’t have any use for you once you’re dead. Don’t compare apples to oranges.

58

Your system punishes deaths heavily even at 5 deaths. This has NOTHING to do with double digit deaths. Also, this would discourage people trying new heroes in casual with fear that they may have very…very long death timers

59

Oh, and this would make the captain 10x less fun and make squishy captains like Fort or Adagio and Lorelai useless. Your idea not only “punishes” trolls, but heavily nerfs a huge chunk of the roster to near unplayability and heavily encourages a turtle meta, which would not be fun. You’re thinking too narrowly about this

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60

Here is an example for a pro: I recently went against XenoTek who played Reim. I was Grace. I had 9 deaths, but still maintained a decent kda for having a rather balanced back and fourth game, so I was not dominating. Reim is a very hard to kill hero. Grace is too, but she has to stay in battle a lot as she does not have many escape options. Reim is the same, but his CC is way faster than Grace’s. XenoTek was not even against a pro team and he ate up 4 deaths. He would have been very close to a whole minute of respawning while I would have had 10 WHOLE MINUTES of just respawning despite me not actually feeding as I mainly died from big team fights or mid to late game skirmishes. If your idea went through, the game would have snowballed way too hard into my enemy team’s favor we still lost anyway kek as I would be out of the match for most of the game even before I got to 7 deaths. Your idea only promotes heavier snowballing nothing more. It’s extremely flawed.

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