5v5 suggestions for Rogue :^)

Vainglory Discussion 5v5
1

Wow look at that a new VG discussion thread. Finally! Thanks to the news about Rogue, my interest in the game rose again (So I rlly hope Rogue really does well with the game in the coming patches) and I decided to make a wish list for the 5v5 map after getting a quick rundown of my usual ranked partners about the current meta. Originally posted it on Reddit and forgot to post it here and just link it. Sorry @hazeleyes lol. I’ll add a link to this thread on Reddit real soon :^) (I did it :^) )

  • Do no make the map mirror. Because top lane will always be in a 2v1 and vice versa, the parameters for a viable top laner are very narrow. Because of this, late game heroes cannot top lane at all, so heroes that do not excel in other roles such as CP Idris are extremely difficult to make work competitively. Also, do what other mobas do and make top lane turrets slightly closer to each other than the bot lane turrets

  • Rework or remove ambient gold altogether. The above suggestion won’t really do anything unless this is also put into effect. That way, if you reintroduce the old Iron Guard Contract, junglers would have to specifically invest in that item, which would lower their kill potential overall, and could open up duo support comps in addition to the normal ganking jungler team comp with CLEAR pros and cons whereas in this meta junglers could take their own jungle just fine and still benefit from ambient gold by staying in bot lane a lot, becoming a secondary support with a very high stream of income from the jungle. I know Iron Guard was originally removed to increase diversity in starting builds, but every moba has a lack of diverse starting builds, especially for supports, and the best kind of diversity to have would be for end game builds. Therefore, the best fix to build diversity for captains would just to add more utility items. However, there should be a tree for this new Iron Guard Contract where the gold received is increased for each tier so that junglers can’t just buy Iron Guard as a starting item and go back to what they were doing before.

  • BUFF TURRETS. Turrets are abysmally weak rn defensively with turrets being taken out as early as 4 minutes in. I’d say you could even double health and they’d just be okay in terms of health total. I’m perfectly fine with the ability to use abilities on turrets, but please give them some kind of survivability. It’s annoying pushing a wave, backing, and having your turret pushed in and already destroyed before you make it back because of the extremely low health total and armor/shield on them. The back door barrier is perfectly fine rn, but the base defenses need a MAJOR overhaul. Even 1 or 2 minion waves could destroy a turret if left alone for a bit which is not okay tbh.

  • More items. It’s self explanatory. Increases build diversity. We need more energy items, bruiser items (Items that can ONLY be purchased by melee heroes), etc etc. Builds still look extremely similar overall and the added defense items have been geared more towards situational defense, which is great, but not really build for captains other than Capacitor or Rook, which even then are not nearly as impactful as, say, Fountain or Crucible. Defense items with energy buffs and stuff would be GREAT for some captains since the only real options for energy atm are chargers, clockwork, and eve. The amount of energy items in the game is abysmal.

  • Rework Journey Boots. I personally do not think the current effect is healthy and easy to balance tbh. One thing I would propose is that it decreases the effect of CC by a certain percent which would be great in this CC heavy meta. That’s just an idea though of course.

  • More objectives. Currently, the only objectives rn are Weapon and Crystal buff, Ghostwing, and Blackclaw. I think Ghostwing could evolve or something into another kind of buff later into the game, such as maybe 16 or 18 minutes, to add a bit more scaling to the late game. As it stands, everything unlocks a little too quickly and I believe you should kinda work towards building up the late game a bit more instead of staying extremely focused on fast matches as I feel that can end up making VG feel a bit more stale compared to other MOBAs.

1 Like
2

Are there any Rogue fellows on this forum ? Must we not indoctrinate them before writing to them ?

3

Should I lure them with cookies?

2 Likes
4

I just wanted to expand on this since item builds are where I’m most interested when looking @ potential improvements to VG.

There are a lot of problems currently, but I’m going to try and condense it down to a few simple points.

  1. Ranged WP characters being able to build two defence items is unhealthy as it makes them frustrating/impossible to fight for melee characters when strong and mage food when weak.
  • Remove Husk. Husk makes ranged characters too difficult to burst when it’s strong and it’s blatantly worse on melee characters because it’s so easy much easier to pop before a proper team fight.
  • Give WP/CP it’s own reflex block item and remove Aegis. Just stats and a reflex block. Although the small amount of resistances might not seem like much, they can effectively pad out the weaker base defence stats of ranged characters and make them unnecessarily tanky.
  • Across the board buffs to health and nerfs to burst damage. Squishies blow up too fast when going glass cannon and are too tanky when building double defence, so encouraging all ranged DPS to go for 4~5 damage would make the game a nukefest without a nerf to things like Celeste ult.

Formatting

  1. The requirement for a.pen on all WP characters is unsatisfying for ability based, sustain WP characters (e.g. Rona, Leo in his intended form).
  • Make Bonesaw stack up on abilities.
  • Also nerf armour pen.

Formatting

  1. Mortal wounds.
  • Mortal wounds are unhealthy for the game because you’re essentially forced to take them every game. Once mortal wounds are introduced, heals and shields have to be buffed to counteract it, which means the moment a team has one heal or shield and you don’t have a healing debuff it has the potential to completely swing a teamfight.
    It’s not fun.
    Mortal wounds on kits is fine since you can draft around it, but having certain comps not work because they can’t fit spellfire into their lineup is stupid.
  • Obviously nerf healing and shields once they’re gone.
  • Spellfire can stay as the sustain damage/poke item.

Formatting

  1. Lack of ‘real’ defence items.
  • Specifically make them poor purchases when bought by themselves. This doesn’t mean that defence items should give strange stat boosts when purchased in pairs, but that they should have synergy with one another and scale off one another.
  • Make it so that every defence item has both resistances and health (or exclusively health). Health is a more visual indicator of tankiness that is easier to understand for new players alongside being a useful tool to measure how many tank items a player is building.
  • Allow ranged characters to build defence items, but with less effect. There are already ranged tanks in the game (for the worse, IMO) which means they need to be catered to. They also shouldn’t have gimped based stats to try and keep them squishy when building tank, since this discourages other builds/makes them frustrating because of how fast you blow up. Obviously they shouldn’t be as tanky as melee characters building the same items, so they should get less ‘effect’ out of the unique passives that come from defence items.
  • Note that if you did make bruiser specific items, you would want to give them health to scale the defence item passives. Personally, I’d tweak BP and add a different lifesteal item for bruisers to replace shiv that suits more of a ramp playstyle.

also i’d remove fountain

1 Like
5

How can you say something so controversial, yet brave?

I completely understand where you’re coming from tho. It gives EVERY captain a team wide heal and is 100% necessary no matter what. Crucible is necessary because of the CC heavy meta, but is less necessary in comps that do not have much CC. If Fountain were nerfed, VG could totally see more healers release (And it would be a MASSIVE buff to Lyra and Adagio, so additional nerfs may be necessary) and build paths could see a lot more variety if VG has more support items release. Of course, Fountain would have to be replaced with several support items.

3 Likes
6

Why more healers , why not more fortified health ? , I actually can’t imagine the game without fountain but I see people agreeing with it so why not , I need more choices as a captain fountain sometimes feels like a lazy brainless choice because as they say it’s op , even as a healer people pinging me build a fountain , why rush a fountain as a healer that’s crazy people addicted to fountain healing .

7

My 5v5 suggestion for Rogue is to bring back 3v3 as a viable mode again.

Your suggestions, while good, would basically bring VG ever closer to playing like a mobile version of League. Well, the real deal (Wild Rift) is on the horizon, so I think making VG more closely mimic League like every other mobile MOBA out there would doom it to being crushed by REAL mobile League.

Better to play up what once made VG unique and build on that.

Just my opinion, but worth every :ice: you paid for it.

7 Likes
8

We need to toughen em up! :triumph:

9

Yeah I get that, but so many good MOBAs have these designs in place because they work well. Of course, Rogue can find ways to differentiate VG more, but for the sake of the meta I think these changes would be very welcome.

1 Like
10

Honestly, I don’t agree with this. Remember all MOBA including league are mirrored (ie, one teams red jungle is across from the other teams blue). What makes VG different is how the jungle impacts he meta. In league, in stead of being based around the jungle, the meta pivots around the neutral objectives. What SEMC would need to do is put an early game objective in the ghostwing pit, and make it more difficult for laners to take jungle monsters.

While I’m all for more objectives, I don’t think this kind of meta is a good future for the game.

Eh, If they have a good solution sure. Otherwise no. Bringing back IGC isn’t a good solution unless they have some new ideas. IGC was removed for a reason.

Yes, more items, but this is not the VG way. VGs items aren’t so much have specific uses, as much as tools for players to utilize. We don’t have “tank items”, just utility and defense items that can be combined as you see fit. We need more tools, not specific boxes that are forced on players.

Buff some turrets, in my opinion tier 1 turrets are perfectly fine. They should be realistic to take out even solo, buffing tier 1s will make the laning phase super boring.

I’d genuinely like to see the mid lane choke point turret be some kind of special super turret. Maybe with AOE. This would help encourage players to push the others lanes as a wincon. It would also continue the unique element of VG differentiating mid lane from other lanes (Blackclaw, more minions, longer lasting turret barriers). But in general strong turrets would slow down the meta too much and make laning lane engaging.

[quote=“NinjaBryden, post:1, topic:8095”]
ore objectives. Currently, the only objectives rn are Weapon and Crystal buff, Ghostwing, and Blackclaw. I think Ghostwing could evolve or something into another kind of buff later into the game, such as maybe 16 or 18 minutes, to add a bit more scaling to the late game. As it stands, everything unlocks a little too quickly and I believe you should kinda work towards building up the late game a bit more instead of staying extremely focused on fast matches as I feel that can end up making VG feel a bit more stale compared to other MOBAs.

I agree, but imo they should be early game not late game objectives. Something like the middle treants spawning around the river to contest would be welcome.

11

Tier 1 turrets die waaaay too quickly. Giving them a big defense overhaul could still keep them billable while soloq without making them susceptible to getting half of their hp chunked if left alone for 5 seconds.

I always thought IGC was removed to grant more build diversity for captains, but removing it did not really do the job tbh. Late game build diversity is what matters

Also, only VG’s map has top meet bot and vice versa. That’s what I mean by mirrored

12

But bot and top lanes aren’t a real thing. VGs map is set up just like LoL and AOV. In fact in AOV you always play from left to right as well. The difference is in meta.

In AOV you call the lanes by their nearby objective. So sometimes “bot lane” is on the bottom side for you, and other times the top. In short, AOV has the same camera set up as VG (always look at the map from the same direction), but the same meta as LoL (side lanes based on global objective). But all three of these games have the exact same map structure. If you look at VG from the top it’s identical to LoL, AOV, and more or less every other moba. Nothing is mirrored differently, there is not flip forcing bot to fight top, it’s just the meta.

13

League is not mirrored.

14

The wild rift will be tho iirc

15

Apparently it will be, and likely for the same reason VG decided to do it: to keep the on screen controls from giving one side an advantage by limiting the view on small screens.

1 Like
16

It’s just as mirrored as VG. You guys aren’t looking at things correctly, pull up pictures of rift from the top vs fold from the top, they are set up identically.

The difference in VG is that the side lane meta is determined by the nearby jungle, not global objective and lane differences. VG isn’t mirrored, playing from the same side is just a camera angle, nothing weird is going on that flips the lanes or something.

17

You can always play from the left and have even lane match ups. That’s how AOV works, and I bet league will work the same. Playing from the left isn’t mirroring the map, it’s just a camera angle flip.

In AOV you just don’t call the lanes top and bot (even though the meta is just like league). You call them based on nearby major objectives since top and bot view isn’t consistent. VG has the same camera angle as AOV, but in stead of the meta conflicting with the top bot terminology, it confirms it. Another example of a game with the same meta as VG was paragon (og meta) where the side lanes were offset match ups as well. The game was 3D third person, nothing was or could be mirrored or flipped, just like VG is just had a jungle centric side lane meta, and apposed to a neutral objective side lane meta which causes offset match ups in the side lane.

I’ll say it again, VG isn’t mirrored or flipped at all.

18

You aren’t making sense. League’s map is not mirrored at all. You play from the left or the right, and the Herald/Baron pit is always closest to top, and the dragon pit is always closest to bottom.

With VG, you still play from the left or right side of the fixed map, but the client mirrors the map to make it appear you’re always playing from the right side. That’s why the Blackclaw’s and Ghostwing’s positions vary from game to game.

4 Likes
19

This lol map is NOT mirrored…strong text

20

It doesn’t mirror the map, and the direction you play from has nothing to do with how the game is actually played. You’re conflating two separate things; camera position, and meta. Admittedly it’s confusing because in VGs case the coincide, but in actuality they are distinct.

It’s easiest to look at these separately:

Camera Position: Vainglory has a fixed map, nothing is ever mirrored or flipped. What changes depending on if you are on A side vs B side is actually the camera angle, nothing else.

Ghostwing is the pit on A sides red jungle, and Blackclaw is in the pit on B sides red jungle. This is how every MOBA is structured.
3A9F1481-455A-4A76-AE3F-677FA6F405B0
Viewed from this angle, Ghostwing is in “bot lane”, and Blackclaw is in “top lane”. From B side you would see the back of Blackclaw pit on the bottom side, and the front of Ghostwing pit on the top. Nothing is mirrored or flipped, just like League.

meta: in most MOBA, the side lane meta coincides with the major objectives. If VG had this traditional meta, playing from B side, you would simply go to the Ghostwing lane in order to play “bot lane”. This is how AOV players handle the camera flip. In stead of calling the lanes bot and top, they call them by their nearby objective name since that works independent of point of view.

But you’ll notice that in every MOBA, one teams red side jungle is across from the other teams blue side jungle. That means that playing bot lane on A side in league is actually slightly different than playing bot lane on B side in league since the nearby jungle for you is different than your opponent.

67912BCD-1D0C-467C-945B-463CA3CA1B3C
67912BCD-1D0C-467C-945B-463CA3CA1B3C.jpeg900×900 412 KB

So, looking at this, there are actually 4 distinct lanes. Bot lane (blue), bot lane (red), top lane (blue), and top lane (red). This is where meta comes in.

In a traditional MOBA, the meta is divided by the qualifier (top lane/bot lane). In Vainglory, and the old paragon map, side lane match ups are based on the second qualifier (blue/red). This has nothing to do with the camera flip, but it does coincide with it. In Vainglory red side is always down visually, which means your red laner always plays bot. That doesn’t mean that any mirroring is happening, VG could just as easily be played from the same POV as League. Even when playing from right to left, the meta would still dictate you chose your lane based off of the jungle qualifier which would lead to offset side lane match ups.

2 Likes