4.5 First Impressions (Update is Live 12:51pm PDT 7/17)

Okay, I’m sorry, but from the artwork to the in-game sounds and effects, the Poseidon Lance is officially the best skin in the game in my opinion. Perhaps it’s my affinity for water, and my love for mythological history growing up, but man - I love this new skin!

EDIT: yes, @Guest_78, I like it even more than Catherine skins and yes… T3 Ringo skin!

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Warhawk seems good now. Maybe too good, but I haven’t been in a match where the people who should have been prioritizing targeting me did. He has a bit of trouble last hitting or clearing a big knot of minions, but he’s great at dealing with the enemy laner. I think he might be balanced now if players would make a point of going after him instead of giving up when he dodges away the first time, but I don’t know. I haven’t really faced him as an enemy yet.

Miho. Not sure what to think of her. Her style is fun, and she has a very weak early game. I got to play her in a few casuals, but those matches were chaos, with no one on either team playing a position and everyone competing for last hits on everything. I can say with certainty that she sucks if your team is not organized. Chaotic teams aren’t good, but some heroes are better than others, and Miho seems to be one of the worst.

I got to play her twice in ranked. One time she was tremendously powerful, and the other I couldn’t make anything happen. Both times I was queuing with a friends, and that helps. As a laner, she absolutely requires another player to help babysit her for the first few levels. Until she gets her Ult, she doesn’t have a reliable way to build stacks of her perk (no one will stay in range while you use your b), so she doesn’t have the damage output to win trades early on. If she gets stuck on a team with a jungler who won’t at least threaten her opposite laner and make them back off, she’s useless.

I got to play against her maybe 5 or 6 times in ranked (mostly as Inara, but I think once as Koshka), and found her super-easy to shut down. I had to build defense a bit earlier, but with those two heroes I tend harass the lanes a lot, and they both stick to Miho like glue. Miho can’t chain her A when she’s trying to escape, and it has a very long cooldown, so she seems really bad at dealing with other highly mobile heroes. I’d expect Ylva, Blackfeather, Taka, and Reba to all be really good against her as well. Inara seemed especially good against her, but Inara seems good against everyone to me.

I played on a tier 4 account and a tier 8 account, but most of the matches where I ended up playing Inara against Miho were on the tier 8 (all of them I think?) I get the impression that Miho is going to seem underpowered in the lower tiers and just plain toxic at the top tiers. In tier 8 I found her easy to counter, but Miho wasn’t getting support early and her team kept letting me scatter them in team fights (which is normal for tier 8, but meant Miho was constantly taking focus fire since I was usually in a 1v4 against her team while my team went 4v1 against her). At tier 4 she was just a turd.

Miho really requires a team that is pretty good even without her. If her team is in a 4v5 fight and then she sweeps in, she is freaking amazing. If her team is all running in circles and trying not to be in range of the enemy, with everyone waiting on her to initiate, she’s crap. I kinda think the player base in general might find her weak since it’s so normal to be on teams where too many players don’t really contribute.

Thank you for these useful thoughts and observations. I will just add that I think in general, for any hero, what you’ve stated is fairly accurate. Teams and heroes work best when teams work together as a unit. I think where Miho’s “broken-ness” comes from is in coordinated team fights. Her ability to apply max stacks to the entire team with her ult, and the potential to dash up to 5 times, applying stuns, and a boosted barrier, is just unstoppable. She simply needs to wait on the outskirts of team fight, and pounce the opportune moment and bam - the enemy team can be deleted. Similar to one good A from Leo.

Overall, to your point, Miho as a stand-alone hero, especially pre level 8, is really not that powerful. In team fights, level 8 and after (which should be most of the game), I’d say from what I’ve observed - priority pick or ban.

EDIT: regarding Warhak, I have noticed he is a LOT tougher to chase down. His A used as a fleeing/peeling mechanic is extremely obnoxious as you’re trying to chase him down. It gives significantly more damage.

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To talk about Warhalk for a second, the real problem is his B. The amount of zoning, peel, and just cc in general is really high for an ability on a short ish cooldown. Compared to something like Celeste B it has a much bigger impact.

Eh, his B is quite telegraphed and easy to dodge. His ult is great zone control. His A is what is annoying me the most. It was so hard to hook him in a game with Yates today. And as I mentioned, it gives significant damage now, he can get distance, you close the gap, he hits you with an empowered basic attack, and then does it again, shooting back further away. He’s definitely a LOT tougher right now.

Just as a sort of off topic, despite him being a little annoying, I feel they really nailed his playstyle. It’s kind of fitting that the little guy with the big gun would be more of an annoyance than a threat to these other “great heroes”.

Unlike most mages he can’t really sustain significant dps, in stead he is about poking and maneuvering around, before catching someone in a bad position. Warhalk is turning into one of my favorite heroes, despite thinking he was lackluster and uncreative on release. It goes to show that simple heroes can work really well.

He even has a potential WP path! love this little guy.


Yeah, any hero is better on a solid team. What I meant is that I think Miho is a more extreme example.

She’s actually a lot like Leo, but she doesn’t sustain nearly as well, so where Leo might fight on his own or initiate a team fight, Miho really needs to ambush and then get out before anyone targets her.

I’ve been playing a bunch today and seeing a bit more about how to deal with her.

First, Lorelai is a hard counter to lane Miho. Until she gets her Ult, Miho needs her B to build stacks, and she will eat Lorelai’s stun every time. Lorelai should be able to force Miho away from the minions, and Lorelai’s Ult will help her outlast if Miho blinks to her. I’ve seen that matchup from both directions, and it’s messy.

I’d expect Celeste and Warhawk would be good against her for similar reasons (she is relatively easy to land skillshots on), but Celeste would need to hug her turret.

I really don’t agree. Miho in not a warrior.

She’s an assassin, and like other assassins once she comes online, she operates really well by herself. She is better in teamfights than most assassins due to her resets being far more effective against multiple targets, but she does not require her team… really at all. Like, every hero is better with a good team, but Miho has her own mobility, her own crowd control, literally invincibility frames for 80% of fights.

A real team reliant hero is someone like Silvernail, Kensei, Celeste, Inara. Heroes who requite their team to work to their fullest potential. Miho is genuinely one of the most self sufficient heroes in the game. The only thing she really lacks is a good early game, but it’s pretty easy to play around that, since her A is a get out of jail free card.


Decent player who knows how to play her can delete entire teams ALONE and plenty of video examples on that. Dunno in lower tiers, I am talking for high t10 bronze and silver/gold. Ofc after A overdrive.


Dont you dare! Shogun Master ringo >>>> the rest :rage:

It’s a lot harder to set up to fight an entire team than videos make it look. Basically the enemy needs to cooperate with Miho a bit by bunching up enough to all get hit with the Ult, but then separating enough that she doesn’t hit them all with her A. She needs to keep reactivating her A to avoid being deleted herself, and generally needs to save the the last activation of her A to hop out.

When it’s most likely to happen is when the enemy is running away, or when they are trickling into a fight one-by-one. You’ll notice that on the video’s that’s almost always what’s happening when Miho starts destroying a team. That gives the enemy the right spacing for multiple hops without letting them just all turn and nuke her.

What happens most often is that Miho uses her A once to get into a fight, and once to get out, and then can’t effectively reengage for 15-20 seconds due to cooldowns. If she’s certain that she’s just fighting one enemy, she stay on her target long enough to kill them, but if there are multiple enemies she really needs to keep moving.

What role are folks seeing Miho in most? Since she suffers with early exchanges in lane, I am wondering if she’s a viable :vgroles_jungle: pick?

Miho lacks any ability to reset a fight though. She doesn’t need to stick in a fight like a warrior does, but once she hops out she’s basically done until her Ult cools down again (she might use her B to build stacks again, but it’s really unreliable). She has around 3 seconds to make anything happen (while she has the barrier) but after she blinks out she’s got 15 seconds where she can’t do anything, and about 15 or 20 more waiting for her Ult. If she can chain her A to multiple targets she can extend her time in a fight, but it’s pretty strictly under 10 seconds, and she still needs to deal with the long reset period. Once Miho is out of the fight, she’s out.

That’s what makes her a bad fit with bad teams, and worse than other assassins when working with a bad team. It’s uncommon for her to get the right setup to blink more than 3 times (and that’s not a guarantee), so she usually doesn’t do enough damage to finish a teamfight on her own while her barrier lasts. She needs her team to also participate in the fight.

I’ve watched a lot of replays from tier 7 and 8, and as a rule there are at least two players present for every teamfight, but not participating in any meaningful way. Sometimes it was because they ran as soon as the fight started, sometimes they are lurking out of range and only fight when the enemy dives, or sometimes they see both teams facing off and decide that is the time to split push. It’s normal. Most often, 5v5 fights are actually 2v3 with 5 spectators who might join in if something crosses over to their side of the line.

In that context, a hero needs to remain relevant to the fight for a pretty long time to make things happen. They don’t need to be actively engaged, but if Taka vanishes or if Anka is chucking daggers from the sidelines, they are still relevant to the fight — they can still jump back in if they see a juicy target. Miho is really powerful while she’s fighting, but if her team isn’t paying attention for those 5 seconds she can’t turn around and do it again.

On a good team, everyone will be ready for the fight, and someone tanky will probably initiate (and maybe even initiate with a control), so they can take advantage of the 5 seconds where Miho is doing massive damage. On a bad team, no one will be in basic attack range of the enemy, 2 players are going to hit boots and go the opposite way as soon as the fight starts, and even after they see Miho use her Ult no one will get in range to fight until someone else does first.

I just can’t think of a hero who is as bad at reengaging as Miho. She really has one chance to fight, and then has to wait for at least 15 seconds. I think that gap is the only reason she’s balanced, but it really messes her up if her team is slow on the uptake and makes her waste her Ult.

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I respect that, but t7 and t8 right now is literally skill wise t5 back in the days when the player base was in it’s peak. Even t10 low bronze is what t8 gold and t9 bronze was.

I am posting my opinion from the current high tiers, i.e. 2500 elo and up. She is really really strong and also if you just blink without basic attacks in between and use your last blink to run - you play her wrong + teams in those tiers even in soloq are competent enough (most of the time) and you should imagine what happens when they also jump in while miho does what she does. Even two of them to jump in is a big advantage + miho really can go 1vs2 and 1vs3 as WP and come on top when played from good player.


I have not seen her do well in jungle, but I tend to play jungle and I tend to invade against her. If she initiates by hitting 3 times with her B or hitting with her Ult, then she can win, but the junglers I play can all usually disengage. (Inara and Taka can always run, but I’ve faced her with Koshka and Joule and they can usually get out of a gank too.) If the enemy initiates against her, she’s basically done; the cast time either on her Ult or on her B are enough for most enemy junglers to do significant damage before she can proc her perk, and she only gets one blink if she didn’t proc her perk. One blink is not enough for her to outrun many enemy junglers, since they either have more movement abilities or faster cooldowns.

Inara is really my main, and Miho seems especially bad against her in the jungle because Inara is exceptional when it comes to resetting and reengaging. I usually invade very aggressively, and force fights when I’ve just let Miho’s mark fade or when I know her abilities are on cooldown.

I could see her doing well in the jungle if she’s allowed to farm up and then gank, but she also has next to no gank potential before level 6.

(I know it might seem like I think Miho is bad. I think she’s really, really good, but Inara and Lorelai are my two most-played heroes and they are both extremely effective against her.)

I know tier 7 and 8 aren’t best — I don’t take any offense. My point throughout has been that Miho is probably really powerful with good teams, but she’s not great with bad ones. I don’t think that a hero should be OP at tier 10 just because they are weak in lower tiers, but really bad teams are the norm.

I don’t think it’s even a matter of the skill of Miho’s players, but the gaps in her cooldowns which make it so she doesn’t have a lot of potential to win if she takes more than 5 seconds to do it.

Compare her to Skye (another high skill floor hero). Skye has 5 and 6 second cooldowns on her A and B, so even though it can be tough to use her the right way, she can always keep reengaging. In contrast, Miho’s A has a cooldown almost as long as Skye’s Ult, which means that if Miho did not win the fight quickly she doesn’t have another chance.

I just don’t see a high-skill Miho carrying a low-skill team the way other heroes can because she can’t keep reengaging the way other heroes can. It’s just too improbable that the team will capitalize in the short window Miho has to act. They see her Ult go out and still aren’t ready to follow through. That is very unlike other heroes, who can usually return to a fight if it took their team a bit too long to engage.

In the world where it takes her 40 seconds to reapply Keen Eye stacks. Once she’s out of a fight, she’s out. She won’t even have her blink back for around 15 seconds, so if anyone runs her down she’s done.

I think a couple of people are mistaking me for saying Miho is weak — she’s not! If she has a team that is halfway-competent, then even when she screws up or runs out of cooldowns, she will have caused enough damage that the rest of the team will capitalize. Competent teams just aren’t the reality for most players most of the time, so I don’t think she’s going to seem that powerful below tier 10.

Neither Anka nor Reza need their Ult to be effective — Miho does. Both Anka and Reza rely heavily on their Ult to survive diving, but they can both chip away from the edges of a fight and still jump back in if necessary. In contrast, Miho needs her perk in order to be effective, and she needs her Ult for that.

Also, Anka and Reza don’t have cooldowns comparable to Miho’s. Anka is at 8 seconds and 4 seconds and Reza is at 3 and 10. Miho has 16 seconds on her A (which she needs to combine with her perk to get the crazy performance), and 5 on her B (which roots her, and does pretty low damage).

Miho is much less effective in the gaps between her Ult as compared to those heroes.

If she’s on a good team and they follow through then the gaps won’t matter, but good teams are an anomaly.

Okay, if you have teammates that follow through, then yes, Miho can follow along with the pack and mop up stragglers. She can’t fight enemies who are fighting back though. Any jungler or carry will win a damage race with her, and she won’t do significant damage to tanks.

It’s not that she doesn’t do enough damage, but she is super-squishy without her blink and her perk. Usually if she just disengaged, she would be a free kill if the went back without her cooldowns.

You are mistaken. Her A has a 16 second cooldown.

Reloading her A is iffy (without her Ult).

Her B roots her, so most players don’t take 3 hits from it. It basically hits the same players who stand in Skaarfs burning goop for he duration. 2 are pretty easy to land, and if she uses A she can then get a third which she uses to refresh her A , but if she just disengaged she doesn’t have her A available. Her B does very little damage on its own, and she only has enough focus for the three shots with it.

In practice, the best Miho can usually do while her Ult is on cooldown is to try and connect with at least 2 hits of her B while everyone is distracted, then wait for her A to cooldown so she can hop in and hop out.

Again, if her team is half-competent, then combined with he shock of her initial attack that is plenty because the rest of the team should be following up, but she can’t do anything to carry a bad team.

What WP assassins are you thinking of? Miho does not do assassin levels of damage without her perk and she has no sustain without her perk. If her team is pushing then she can probably move in the middle of the pack, but she’s fragile.

For her to rely on her AA, she’d probably need to build double defense the way that a lot of warriors do, but she’s really best used as a burst damage hero.

She’s just really bad at reengaging, which shouldn’t be a problem with a good team, but if she’s carrying a bad team she’d need to try more than once.

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This is definitely true. Miho takes practice and good mechanics and understanding the timing of her abilities. Once she hits her spike at level 8, a confident and skilled Miho can be far more aggressive than most other heroes. She can easily 1v2.

That said, I find a lot of what @Inktomi is saying to make perfect sense. I’ve seen a lot of casual and a handful of ranked matches where she’s bullied hard and useless most of the game. To @VaKTaBi’s point, that could very well be due to the skill of the player using her. To @Inktomi’s point, it could be due to her team or the opposing team having a good understanding of her and when to back off. Both sides can be right!

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Hehehee you always so conciliatory :blush:

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