WP Broosers

Vainglory Discussion Heroes, Builds, & Items
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I’m going to keep this short.

Rona. Joule. Alpha. These are the three characters I would consider the closest to being ‘carry bruisers’. When I say that I mean they deal sustained damage that is meant to be able to kill an enemy team (based off their design).

Sorrowblade, Serpents, Spellsword, Shiv, Point, Bow, Saw, Tyrants, Tornado. Those are the current WP items in the game.

Sorrowblade, Serpents and Spellsword work on all of them. You’ll probably use one of them to start your build, maybe a second later on. You’ll probably get Mask.
Shiv is horrendous on Rona and Joule and for Alpha you’re likely better off with Mask.
Tyrants and Tornado realistically can’t be built on these characters because they need defence and there are more important stats to buy. RIP Crit Joule, you were unfairly ripped away from us.

So that leaves us with Bow, Saw and Point. Currently you are forced to take armour pen to deal damage because of the new resistance changes. 45% / 30~70% is too big to ignore. The issue comes with which to choose, because they’re both bad options. Tension Bow and Bonesaw don’t work for Rona (Spin) or Joule (Thunderstrike) and although Alpha does have synergy with Bonesaw, it takes too long to stack it which often means death. Or she builds TB and tries to deal with it.

Point is a guaranteed buy on these characters, not because it’s good, but because it has synergy with their playstyle and it’s probably better than another Sorrowblade.

What I’m trying to say is that weapon itemisation sucks for Bruisers. You have mask, then a mediocre BP and an armour pen item that doesn’t have synergy with the way you play. Whoops.

Seperate Point

It sucks that instead of fixing the core problem with the game, ya boi Zekent seems to insist on simply giving bruisers bigger numbers. Or CC immunity. Sans is dumb.

To see what I mean when I say this, we don’t need to look further than Grumpjaw and Joule.

Grumpjaw is what I like to call ‘unfun’. He goes in at level 1 and decimates you before becoming essentially worthless late game. He has really big numbers but his innate bruiser weaknesses are so massive that even with those numbers he becomes a glorified support late game. A lot of WP bruisers are like that right now. Feather, Rona, Alpha ect. The difference between those characters and Grumpjaw is that Grumpjaw has damage reduction which actually makes him better than Ardan in lane, not just being simply on par. Also he has utility which helps him scale but that’s a whole other rabbit hole I’m not going down.

Joule is what I would call ‘Unfun but I can build CP’. Bruisers are indeed overstat, but can’t get past the fact they are indeed bruisers and get blown up late game and don’t do much damage because of their bad itemisation. However, if you can avoid both these things by building CP and becoming sudo-ranged…
You get CP Joule.
Joule B Ratios: 180% CP 200% WP :ok_hand:
Aside: It’s baffling how an item like Spellfire can exist and enable mages to deal more damage in one combo than a SM BP bruiser AND have wounds but that’s the state of the game I guess.
CP Joule just slides into that meta while also still having the same large numbers and damage reduction as Grump.

Make sure to post your thoughts and opinions down below because if I don’t specifically state that this is a discussion then the moderator cops might lock my thread oh noes.
Hopefully having two points of note isn’t too difficult.

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Krul? Tony? Glaive? Grump? Ozo? Maybe even San Feng, we’ll have to see how he evolves. To some extent even Kensei and Baptiste, but I wouldn’t really consider those two true bruisers.

I see what you mean with these heroes, (although doesn’t Rona’s spin generate bonesaw stacks?) but consider, as I mentioned above, Krul and Grump are also bruisers, TT works on both of them, so does Shiv and Bonesaw. Not to mention TM Glaive. Crit Glaive best Glaive.

It is still a valid point you make though, because even tho different bruisers can be built differently, each one still only has one real build path, plus or minus a defence item maybe, which makes them boring and predictable.

Why the hell they removed the armour pierce on joules B and gave it a bigger CP ratio I have no idea. She was great before then (maybe a bit stong but ok), now she’s dull to play. There’s no reason to go WP, sure your B does a little more damage but in exchange for no damage on the A or Ult. Not worth it.

This. I hate that there’s so many mortal wounds in the game right now, any hero can have one if they want, which of course they will do if the enemy team has anything with any sustain/heal. Sure it balances out things like Lyra and Krul, but it completely removes the point of Rona, Taka and Fortress being counterpicks to such heroes or even having built in wounds in the first place, not to mention the lack of skill it requires to apply mortal wounds in general.

So my thoughts are kinda all over the place, hopefully you can make sense of them somehow.

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I didn’t count any of these characters because they have a major utility they can bring to the table, not just damage. Afterburn, Taunt, Consume Enemy Laner, ect.
Except Ozo he’s dumb.

I’d also consider Kensei one but he’s more AA based than ability based, so I left him out. He is a newer character so I do think they made him around the item pool so that he has a few options. Not that it helps him too much.

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I think supports are a part of the problem too. Peel in this game isnt amazing. If hypercarry melee hero (like bf) exist there arent many tools to deal with them as support. If they make contact with ranged hypercarry then they win due to more powerful kits.

Having strong bruisers makes teamwork more neccessary and demanding. The learning curve for supports is really bad in this game. Only after a lot of games i started to think about bodyblocking. We need items that enhance bodyblocking, like a debuff to melee hero if he passes over you or some kind a barrier to closest hero on engage rewarding positioning. And i think all new supports should have some kind of teamwide or single damage reduction ( like all new heroes get cc).

I believe hero like Lance would never be made as captain if 5v5 was before 3v3. I think of him as combo warrior jungler with alot of cc. Fortress no peel, cath short stun - never seen that stop competent bf…

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To an extent Pulseweave does that, but it’s abused as a dive tool.

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Those heroes have bad designs and bad synergy with items as you said. There’s just no viability outside of broken numbers. But yeah I’ve thought a lot about the items and literally the only attack speed item heroes like BF, Rona, Kensei can use is BP. Maybe they could add more but they just can not do without BP. So when BP is nerfed into useless item (because of the heroes that outperform those same BFs, Kenseis, Ronas…) they don’t have anything besides the first pure WP item. I just don’t get why BP should be useless on them because of ADCs when it is THE item supposed to suit them. Why can’t they make BP more useful on melee heroes (and no not the 5 WP required or something, ranged will always outdamage melees so it doesn’t matter)? I mean we need more items for them as you said but like at least don’t destroy the one that worked.

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We need more peel? Uh? The problem with heroes like BF and especially Krul, Alpha, Rona etc is that they can not catch up to anyone in a team fight because of the peel lol. Actually even if they do there’s that Kinetic that can just outdamage and outsustain them in pointblank range so I guess there’s more problems. I don’t see why we need more peel considering an entire class of heroes is generally useless and struggles to deal with it in any situation.

How would Pulseweave be a bodyblocking tool? It was made for engage heroes. To me it sounds like they wanted to change it into top lane item after the changes. Has some AoE damage when active around you - Lane clear. Builds from lifespring - helps with the toxic 1v2 meta in top lane before without recalling constantly. Now I’m not saying it works as intended as it’s not as good as it was on release and also it’s usually not first item to help with laning phase. Just how it seems to be intended. But on release it was supposed to help dive heroes with their engage.

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So you basically left out all heroes that don’t prove your point? Also, WP lance doesn’t build those 3 items exactly. Neither used to WP ardan, nor grace.

Peel in this game is broken. There is a reason why ranged heroes seem to be the strongest always, and when a melee hero can duel them then it’s broken (aka lance and GJ).

BF is no longer a hypercarry, he is nothing now after all they deleted from his kit. Lol, not even kensei is an hypercarry now.

Couldn’t agree more.

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He is better with SM BP and BS or TT, but not TM

Except Tony, all of them needs to build damage, the CC they have is not so strong, so they are not utility bruisers, they rely on the damage they build.

So basically bruisers can only be those who don’t rely on their AA? What the hell?

Peeling is really strong, and is the base for every teamfight. Note: there are no melee hypercarries.

Glaive: SM, BP, BS / TT; SB, PS, BS/BP – TB is also viable.
Alpha: SM, BP, BS; SB, BP, BS / PS; SSw, BP, PS / BS;
Rona: SM, BP, BS / other situational items.
Krul: SB / SSw, BP, BS / PS / SS.
Grumpjaw: historically TB and TMs; SM, BP; SB, PS, BS.
Tony: double SSw and utility
Kensei: SM, BP, BS; SB, BP / PS, BS /PS.
Blackfeather: SM, BP, BS; SB, BP / BS, PS / BS.

As you see, many bruisers use more than just SM, BP and BS. Their build is not their problem, or at least not their main problem – utility bruisers or tanks has as much damage as this bruisers without the need of building damage items.

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I left out heroes that

  1. Aren’t the type of characters that are meant to be main damage dealers. These characters can go straight up CDR and full tank, maybe tossing in a tension bow. That’s not a damage dealer, that’s a captain hoping they snowball. 2. I’d still argue that their builds are similarly constrictive if you want to make it in the late game; building more than two damage items on someone like Grump or Tony leaves you with a very weak late game. It’s just that I wanted to keep the post short.
  2. Sans and Ozo are more CP based so I left those two out as well.

Edit: Moar

IDK why you included Shiv so much, it’s not particularly viable on a large number of characters due to its low numbers and SF doing it’s job better.

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Hum… kensei? Glaive? WP lance? WP ardan (in the past)? Even GJ generally builds more offensive than tank (this update doesn’t, but in general in the updates).

The main Ozo build right now is wp.

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I already mentioned Kensei at one point, but I do think he works better with the newer items because he was designed around them.

I don’t consider Glaive a carry unless he gets a lead, but I could say the same thing about a lot of other characters. I don’t consider Lance a carry because of both his status as a Captain and his role as a CC bot late game. Grump is pretty whack but I feel like SEMC is going to keep him in his current role of 1-2 offence cheese because it’s healthier than his TM days

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I think a lot of the WP items could use buffs for melee holders, Tornado trigger should give 15% movement speed increase, tension bow should have higher base damage, and I think shiv should apply mortal wounds easier or longer for melee carriers since it’s so much harder to sustain attacks on a target. Breaking point also feels nearly impossible to stack as a melee hero because you are forced to buy defense.

On ranged carries if you buy BP your first 3 items can be 3 damage items including a pierce item. On a melee hero, you pretty much have to buy lifesteal, breaking point, defense, and boots before going for a 3rd damage item which makes stacking it more or less impossible unless you are the more assasin like heroes such as BF and Idris that can stick to targets and don’t need defense.

Really, now that I think about maybe in stead of buffing items for melee heroes or adding more, a better solutions would be to make melee kits actually function in 5v5 with better damage scaling, defensive tools, and gap closing ability. A Rona should have the ability to be a menacing frontline in 5v5 fights, and imo the items aren’t really at fault as much as melee warriors lacking the ability to use them effectively.

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Then what do you consider a carry? Glaive is a lot more near the carry zone than the utility one, so is WP lance given that he builds 3-4 offensive items in most cases. You didn’t count Tony or GJ due to being built tank, but when a tank is built carry he still is a tank? You say bruisers can’t use other items, but when there is one that does you just don’t take it into account because it doesn’t prove your point.

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Crits breaks Glaive strutter stepping

This is just not true

When WP Alpha is viable, this is one of her builds

How this proves your point?

Again, this is simply not true

In certain situations you can. But BF was designed to build SM and BP.

There are better options, but some builds can use it effectively. SF does the work better, but SF is CP and PS is WP

Kensei, Glaive… Those still buy damage, not CDR or tank, so don’t know what are you saying.

That’s because how the game is played and how their kits are designed, not because the items.

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No melee hero is designed as a carry, they are early damage dealers that just protect or take damage in lategame.

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Characters where their main role is to do damage.
I wouldn’t consider Ylva a carry, she’s a utility/damage hybrid like Glaive. These characters can flex between roles which naturally diversifies their builds. When I’m talking about Rona/Joule/Alpha I use them precisely because they can’t flex into a SSw Tank build that just exists to peel. If can choose between a straight damage build or you can go CDR Tank with one or two damage items. I’m trying to avoid talking about these characters to keep the topic on focus, which is the idea that a large number of WP items aren’t good on a large number of Bruisers, particularly ability based ones.

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…

Glaive isn’t utility though? Oh, wow, he has a stun. No meta build for Glaive involves building utility at all.

On 3, on the 3 you’ve said, because the rest of the heroes we say you just don’t take them into account.

So if you can build utility, then you are always utility and aren’t considered damage bruisers? Then of course wp don’t work on bruisers, you are picking 3 whose build is the same, one of which doesn’t even build WP, while ignoring the rest of them because “they have the chance to build utility”.

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We’re both talking to brick walls, I’m not going to bother.

Just know I choose these characters to make the point. More flexible WP melee characters don’t have it as bad but they still suffer from having less items to choose from. I’ll leave it at that.

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Okay, folks, as I expected, this is turning into nothing but bickering. I don’t see anything to be gained by leaving this open much longer.