Thoughts on Cheating

Your lack of consistency and precision in the terminology in your posts makes your arguments difficult both to follow and to counter.

It’s really quite simple: cheating is wrong. It’s not “creative” or “cunning” or any other euphemism – it’s dishonest, pure and simple. When it involves other people – as in multiplayer gaming or in your example of the mechanic or attorney – it’s an antisocial act. Period.



I don’t dispute that it is wrong. I’m just saying it does happen - and we are better for it -

or should i say - we can benefit from it / because of it.

Nope. Society does not benefit from people being dishonest and taking unfair advantage of others. In fact, as Hipster pointed out above, it often results in serious harm – such as in your example of the mechanic “cheating” on safety procedures.

You seem to be conflating “cheating” (the definition of which I posted above) with “innovating” – they are not remotely the same thing. Innovation (or “discovery” if you prefer) is finding new or creative ways to solve problems. Innovation does NOT involve dishonesty and DOES often result in a benefit to society.

People can be both innovators and cheaters, but there remains a distinction between the two terms – they are not equivalent. Thomas Edison was a brilliant innovator who gave the world the phonograph, motion pictures, and the electric light bulb. However, he also sought to gain advantage over his rival George Westinghouse through dishonest means by falsely claiming that alternating current was too lethal to be permitted for general use.


well that’s true, there is a difference, but I would say the creative process in the brain is the same, which is what i’m getting at.

whether or not it involves a dishonest act just divides it into different definitions. that’s not my call to make. I wouldn’t want to say to a dishonest person that you can only innovate if you are honest.

Honestly all these words are just to describe an internal creative process - and even those words “internal creative process” is just another string of words.

No, I was saying your logical proof of it was lazy, not the hypothetical acts of cheating. People can be very industrious cheats! :cheers_minioncandy_t2: But in making your logical proof, you fell back on an argument of “rule-breaking behavior exists everywhere, so therefore it’s desirable.” Appealing to the status quo isn’t sound. All sorts of bad things exist… doesn’t make them any better just by virtue of existing. On top of that, by flattening it out you not only overlooked the very real differences between your examples and gaming, but also the differences between your examples themselves (law and manufacturing). I thought both the analogy and the logic was off the mark.

It is though. It very much is. This is why we vote, for instance, to pass regulations that make sure auto manufacturers build seatbelts to specification, so that we don’t all fly through windshields. They could easily value engineer them, to find advantage in the calculation of safety to lives, and cheat their customers out of the security they pretend to sell. This is very much your call to make. If someone can innovate a new polymer fabric to reduce cost of seatbelts while maintaining security, more power to them. Maybe they do it through a new narrow fabric sewing technique, or a material scientist somewhere synthesizes an entirely new element perfect for seatbelt construction, I don’t know. But rather than innovate, they fabricate false safety reports, for instance, to hide their savings, that would be cheating and unethical. You see what I mean? You surely wouldn’t excuse that act simply because people are able to lie, and “oh well, I guess they were creative enough to lie in this particular way.”

I don’t disagree with you about the value of ‘ethical hacking’ (as I said before), and I know a couple of folks who do that as a career, in fact. I’m just saying that you’re talking about cheating and innovation from such a rooftop level that you’re overly conflating them and excusing a lot of harmful behavior.

And, speaking as an artist and designer, I would also say that cheating is actually very unproductive, in terms of pure creativity. The most creative results tend to come from constraint-based prompts, i.e., making the most of a limited set of resources. Cheating is often an external act, to look beyond what’s available, the desire to pull in extra. Constraint-based creative processes look to transform the possibilities of what’s in front of you. We can argue about the breadth of the ‘system’ that’s in front of you, but I hope you understand what I’m saying. To bring it back to gaming, I think a developer’s approach to this difference (what lies in front of you, and what lies outside the interactive system) is the main way to assess intent re: cheating.

(Me reading this thread)

:eyes: What even is this thread? Uhhh… I’ll give my thoughts?

I personally think it’s impossible to cheat in a moba, because I define cheating as external modification to your own benefit, or in some cases use of developer given features. In moba’s, cheats do not exist though. Mobas are also virtually un-hackable because it’s server-based, modifying your client does nothing.

“Cheating” In vainglory would be somehow modifying a client and gaining significant advantage because of it.

The nature of mobas allow for complicated, intricate, well-thought out plans, or disgusting poopstrats. You can also exploit glitches (remember patelo’s munion targeting bug?) in your favor. It’s still a strategy, but it’s a poopstrat. Why? Moba’s have the unique ability to attempt to balance system support and player choice as two necessary factors for success. Simply relying on system support to win, imo, defeats any feeling of victory.

Cheating in a moba is not okay, it’s the same as hacking. I’d advise everyone against using poopstrats, but if that’s the way you want to play, go for it.

Yes, even Cheats and hacks are considered acceptable IF you’re smart enough to get away with it

…Is this a satire thread?

Unfair ?
I like the cheating definition but who is going to say fair ?
Let’s say Iam playing a free game but it built with pay to win strategy
Now cheating and gaining advantage as a free to play player by using third party app is unfair for the company but fair for me , giving a pay to win player advantage over me is unfair for me , fair for them .

The same goes for dishonesty , you can’t tell a killer about his/her potential victims place , you lying but for good intentions .

So if you think about our words meanings , it always involve good or bad things , so you can be fair or dishonest depending on the situation , and that’s in my opinion is difficult to apply to gaming , cheating in games could be a fun experience , especially with friends for example , but I agree it ruin games , and make the game unplayable .

I think you guys reading venom like this
“the ends justify the means" Machiavelli
But I don’t think venom means that , he is just seeing the reality , a moral lesson won’t stop cheaters , get the tools to stop them .

Thats why I ended up not replying to this thread , Im not big brained enough to keep up with the in depth-ness of this topic :exploding_head: plus it was giving me a actual headache to follow and respond (and Im sure I ended up confusing myself in the process :mask::sleepy: