Think we need some serious player made tutorials for newplayers

I think people just got worse in this update. I don’t even play 3v3 anymore. I don’t know how good 5v5 players are, but what I hear it’s the exact same but worse in some cases.

In the past, I’ve really pushed making good tutorials NECESSARY and not just something you can skip. Force new players to go through serious player made tutorials and reward them of course for doing so.

Current 5v5 and other tutorials are much too basic and players aren’t required to watch the sub-tier tutorials anyway.

Really makes a bad playerbase when 3/4 of the players don’t even know how to properly play the game.


They made a new tutorial this update, and it is high quality with special voice acting for just the tutorial and goes slightly more in depth about the game than before.

The main concern about your proposition is if you make the tutorial too long or too complicated, the player might find the game too boring or too confusing to play and then quit before they even get to the actual gameplay. So they have to make a balance between having a highly educational tutorial while not making the player bored.

I feel like the best way to do this is by continuing the watch a video quests, but making sure that you cannot skip them and still get the rewards. Another way they can go about this is by teaching new things along the way when they become important, such as teaching draft mode to a player once they reach the tier that they can draft and stuff like that.

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Staged tutorials are good for that. The issue is more about teaching people. Some are good at it while others just make things more complicated.

It’s not that you need tutorials, it’s that we need good ones. Ones that help new players and veterans alike acclimate to the new mode.strong text

They should just get linked to the forums and other places where there are guides to be found. Maybe some youtube videos.
Getting it sll in one tutorial is nearly impossible so SEMC should just guide players to the places where they can learn

I did this tutorial you’re speaking of, and it barely scratches the surface. Basically all it teaches you is the commands. It never talks about actual strategies.
Not that it would be better anyways, welcoming newcomers with an avalanche of info isn’t the best way to make them interested in the game.

SEMC was putting videos by pros players in the in-game academy some time ago, sadly they made two then stopped.
I do believe that there should be some kind of wiki, explaining advanced mechanics, linking to useful resources, maybe managed by SEMC.

This new forums has a politic of constituting such a thing, and I think that’s a very good idea.


First long post in a longer time. Bear with me. I have a lot of thoughts on this.

Side note: Ironically, the playerbase worsening “might” be a good sign. It could imply people who stopped playing VG/newbies have started playing it again. Both those people and a lot of “current” players are in dire need of basic information.

The new player tutorial is much, much better than previous incarnations. It feels a lot more interesting and fun to me, at least. This format is something I wanted to see before (Idmonfish asked me to think about 5v5 tutorials and I totally dropped the ball on this) - both for 5v5 and other game modes. I am purely talking about the format here. There is no way a new player tutorial will cover any important information about basic strategy. Its way too much for one sitting.

I fully agree that the tutorials can’t be too long - at least, not all at once. Not all the information is important to know up front, and its annoying to have to wait for a long, long time before being able to play any real games. I think I have a pretty long attention span, and I still delete some games because the tutorial is super boring or is unflattering to the game.

My issue with linking people to guides and forums are numerous, even though that is clearly the most practical and easy approach to achieve:

  1. Information is not always… helpful or accurate.
  2. They might not trust said people
  3. Most casual-ish players are not as likely to bother visiting outside sources. Most people I see in the community are there to rant, are high tier, or are not interested in learning.
  4. Most importantly imho - it allows SEMC to distance themselves from this, when this should primarily be THEIR project. Yes its nice for players to make guides, but ultimately this is SEMC’s issue as much as game balance or bugs or graphics.

I’m not saying that the forums and other places shouldn’t be linked to players. They should be and are. They just aren’t enough, there should be information (almost forcefed?) to players. The ingame tutorials and videos have a lot more information than in past games, but it doesn’t seem to do a good job teaching teamwork and the like. Some things, such as Meta Hero/Builds are not something SEMC should try to cover by tutorial because balance changes happen far too frequently. The information covered needs to stand the test of time.

I think most knowledgable people could roughly agree on what information takes precedence, without factoring in the tiers to learn it at. Unfortunately, people have shortened attention spans trained to jump away instantly at the sound of a notification. We’ve already had the basic tutorials “all at once” and they weren’t stellar. A lot of the time you can just skip them with no penalty. Skipping is gr8 for smurfs and totally bypasses the original intent of teaching other players.

A mix of approaches might work better. We could have short tutorials that are set to automatically appear at different levels of the game (bear with me), that are NOT SKIPPABLE. At the end of each tutorial a simple questionair pops up. If the player answers correctly, they get to move on with a significant reward. If they get it wrong, they can rewatch before another quiz attempt, or move on, but no reward. A new player should know they can come back any time. The tutorials should always be visible to any player at any time - allowing older players some easy rewards for game knowledge, and incentivizing less knowledgeable veterans to brush up on their knowledge. The tutorial rewards for answering questions correctly should be significant. Not piddling little things. Large, noticeable amounts. The game has expanded enough that giving out a few more heroes and skins won’t hurt anyone.

So the flow I am envisioning for a tutorial is:

  • Player triggers a tutorial
  • Player watches/plays tutorial
  • Player attempts quiz at end of tutorial
  • If wrong, can cancel or retry. If correct, gets significant reward and unlocks the next tutorial.

The basic format can be very flexible, allowing people to have tutorials for more advanced things like blocking Blast Tremor with Crucible or using Rose Offensive/Kaiten to dodge an ability. Any player who wants to do a series of tutorials in a row (or replay without a reward) should be fully enabled to do so, but not required.

An example of this overall tutorial system:

  • Player hits starts the game
    *Player does basic tutorial.
    *Player plays 3 casual games
    *Player unlocks basic tutorial about assisting allies
    *Player reaches level 5/plays 10 Casual games total
    *Player unlocks tutorial about basic team compositions - Laner+Jungler+Roamer
    *Player gets to level 10
    *Player unlocks tutorial explaining ranked mode.
    *Player hits T5/Plays 25 Ranked games
    *Player unlocks tutorial explaining the importance of each role.

(No, this is not at all intended to be comprehensive, or accurate in information placement, I just wanted a simple example of the timelines and how stuff goes together. Let me know if this isn’t very clear. I am not doing a TL; DR because this is not a simple topic.)


not trying to revive discussion on this topic or anything, kappa

I can sit down and give a more thought out example of a tutorial. Lets say this one appears at… idk, level 5? Imagine this on the 3v3 map, because I don’t have 5v5. The speech examples I give are intended to show what progression of ideas I try to introduce to the players, rather than being anything remotely “final”. Some details will only be stated within the speech because posting them outside is redundant. Likewise, the ideas shown can themselves be changed, but this is just intended to be an example. Hero choices are either semi-random or for continuity.

(Pretend there are pauses ingame when there is important information being explained or the player is supposed to interact with something - abilitites, items, the minimap…)

  1. (Player loads into the tutorial as Koshka, at the back treant. Catherine is nearby, and low on health. The enemy team is visible, the ally Ringo is at the shop.)
  2. Catherine: "Jungle camps give lots of gold! They respawn slowly so you want to make sure the enemy doesn’t steal it. Here, help me take this healing camp, I’m not doing so well :’( "
    (Progress relies on the player letting Catherine kill the treant instead. As Catherine speaks, the screen goes dark except in a circle to highlight her low health and energy)
  3. Catherine: “Perfect! I’m back in fighting condition! Let’s check the minimap and see if we can find any enemies.” (Player is shown how to use the minimap. There is vision all over the player side of the map, and all enemies are visible, with speech triggers upon sighting each group)
    A. (Player moves the minimap and sees the enemy Skaarf in the lane) Catherine: "Oh look, Skaarf is all alone up there! Now, let’s find the other enemies before we do anything hasty."
    B. (Player moves the minimap and finds the enemy Joule and Ardan in their own shop bush, the ally Ringo is in the player’s shop bush) Catherine: “There’s two of us and two of them. Lets keep an eye on them.”
  4. (After seeing all the enemies) Catherine: “Well, we can go for a large brawl by the shop, or we can gank 1 fluffy dragon. Let’s go for the unfair fight and make Skaarf your chew toy!” (Player + Catherine move to their lane bush)
  5. (Player’s Koshka + Catherine are in the lane bush) Catherine: “Ok, I’ll go stun the Skaarf, then you can go wild!” (Catherine moves in with a Merciless Pursuit, but Skaarf Reflex Blocks)
  6. Catherine: “Oh no! He Reflex Blocked my stun! Quick! Get him before he escapes!” (Player is directed to use Koshka’s Ult on the Skaarf. Skaarf gets stunned.)
  7. (Catherine is basic attacking the Skaarf.) Catherine: “Finish him!!! He’s using Boots to run away!” (Player is directed to use boots to help chase down the fleeing Skaarf)
  8. (Skaarf is killed) Catherine: “Good! We wiped out the Skaarf! Now where did Ringo get to…” (Player is supposed to use the minimap to check the shop. The enemy Ardan and Joule are busy mauling Ringo in his shop brush.)
  9. Catherine: “Oh no! Ringo took too long to shop! :rage: Let’s go help him!” (Player and Catherine move down to their shop brush)
  10. (Catherine and Player/Koshka arrive in their tribush) Catherine: “The enemy took some damage and is low on energy, let’s avenge Ringo.” (Player is supposed to attack the damaged enemy Ardan and Joule. They die quickly.)
  11. Catherine: “Thats great! 3 kills for 1 is a good trade any day. I see Skaarf respawning. Let’s go capture the Gold Miner while the enemy team is away.” (Player Koshka + Catherine check the scoreboard and then move up to the Gold miner.)
  12. Catherine: “This is too slow. We need Ringo’s DPS to take this miner faster!” (Catherine uses the “Gather All” ping on the Gold Miner. Ringo appears in the player Tribush)
  13. (Ringo starts attacking the Gold Miner and makes the capture much faster) Ringo: “Sorry about earlier guys, I wasn’t sure what to buy. :frowning: Say, have you seen Skaarf anywhere?”
  14. (Catherine flares the enemy tribush. Skaarf is sitting there.) Skaarf: “O_O (insert panicked gurgles)”
  15. Catherine: “Sneaky Skaarf! He planned to steal the Gold Miner and waste all our hard work… GET HIM!!! :rage:” _(Catherine leads the charge. Player team kills Skaarf very quickly.)
  16. Catherine: “Teamwork makes the dream work! The enemy is still respawning, so let’s finish the Gold Miner. They can’t stop us now!” (The death timers at the top are highlighted briefly, then the player team finishes off the Gold Miner)
  17. Insert an ending you like, I didn’t think of anything better than “Good Job team!”

So the idea here is to highlight a number of important concepts in rapid succession in a practical sense, rather than focusing on a text explanation. Setting it in an environment more like an actual match should allow the tutorial to be more engaging and faster paced. The concepts covered here in what should be maybe 2 minutes tops:

A. Sharing healing creeps with teammates when they need it.
B. Jungle creeps have set respawn timers. Keep farming them.
C. Basic use of the minimap on areas you have vision of.
D. Ganking.
E. Hinting at Reflex Blocks.
F. Hinting at Chain CC.
G. Boots and how to use them.
H. Working/helping allies.
I. Judging enemy life totals.
J. Its ok to die if your team comes out ahead. (3 kills to 1)
K. Basic objective control.
L. Taking miners as a team.
M. Vision.
N. Preventing Objective steals.

Are these covered in depth? No. Clearly not, and they were not intended to be. The goal of the tutorial is to help players start to understand the different dynamics and concepts at play in a MOBA and help them make more informed decisions. At an early stage, just introducing them to many ideas should be more than enough. If anything this tutorial might be a little too packed, and many/most things will be missed the first time.


It might be too packed but in moba games with the basics you either know all the basics or you know nothing. It sounds harsh but anyone who played dota(the Warcraft 3 mod) knows before you grasps the basics you were crushed until you learned

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I think we need to make VaingloryFire great again. I’m a relatively new player, I got into the site through the link on a hero page in game. I’m a guy who likes to research a lot and I spent literally hours poring through the guides there. I did notice most of the top guides were years old but I didn’t really know how fluid the meta is (this being my first moba) and I remember actually opening safari on slide over in my iPad (for those who don’t know, you get to have another app open in the side of your screen) because I was so bad at remembering build orders! It was only much later that I realized those builds were so, so, so bad. One of my favorite builds for Krul was one I got on that site - and if I see someone use that build now I’ll probably tilt off the face of the earth. (Believe it or not, this build was AS BP FB crucible atlas & JB. Kill me…)

But it also had guides by pro players. When I discovered the pro scene, I was pleasantly surprised to see pros like CullTheMeek and Xenotek and VONC had made guides (albeit long ago). I think this is what we need. I know there are lots of immensely skilled players on here and it will probably take a lot of effort but it will be super helpful to the community. (Especially if it’s advertised more in game, not a tiny icon hidden to the bottom right of the hero screen).

So yeah I think actual good player made guides are more essential than tutorials. The one right now covers a lot of the basics (except lane koshka…pls no). The academy videos are great as well, though I hope they’ll keep putting in more videos in the “pro” section which right now isn’t super advanced.


It’d be an easy interface to add to the forums with a template for builds

Three problems: better but still concise strategy guides, having everything on one freaking website, and better in game communication. This game is packed with little details in gameplay that can make or break the win, but it’s so difficult to teach other players them because of these three issues.

I agree that the players are the ones who need to make vg great for all of us but SEMC really has to give us the proper platform to do so, and that included talking about things in game-real time, so that people can have the opportunity to learn from other players mid-match instead of make the same mistakes. I know trolling & toxicity are a risk but it’s a risk that needs to be taken.