The fundamental flaw with Weapon characters in VG


#1

Before anything, I just want to preface this by saying this has been an issue for a LONG time, but this problem has been amplified by a combination of 5v5, the current meta and most importantly, the release of Kinetic. What I may say from this point aren’t short-term things; they’re more about the landscape of Vainglory in general. Also, this one is a really long one.

Okay, let’s get into it.

Introduction

Ranged characters shouldn’t be allowed to be tanky while also being a primary damage threat.

Some people call them ranged bruisers, but I instead call them ‘Not fun to play against’. Of course, I’m talking about the SM BP builds that have been popping up everywhere, particularly on Vox and Kinetic. I’m going to spend the next paragraph or two explaining why they aren’t fun to play against.

Bruisers

Bruisers in most MOBAs are Melee characters that build a mix of damage (Typically 1-3 items) and defence. These characters typically are tanky enough to survive burst from a single target, have enough mobility to get onto a backliner and enough damage to assblast them into another dimension. The weakness of bruisers is that they generally lack the pure defence stats of a tank to survive a teamfight and that they don’t have enough mobility and burst to kill someone with multiple people peeling for them. Some bruisers do scale well into late game, but in that case, they generally have weak early games through long CDs and weak base stats. Bruisers are generally the strongest class numbers-wise, but their downfall comes in that they need to all in to deal damage. Again, there are exceptions to that, but to put it simply, they deal good damage, they tank pretty well, they have decent mobility and CC, but they struggle in fights when they can’t get onto the enemy team. Due to this, most bruisers are best at splitpushing and 1v1ing. Bruisers are usually characterised by a high base damage, decent stats and having a long CD on their most powerful basic ability. Vainglory already has some good examples of bruisers. Glaive is a ball of damage, defence, mobility and CC that’s fantastic at duelling ranged carries and splitpushing. He’s strongest at midgame and falls off a little at late game, where his afterburn engage shenanigans are punished heavily if Glaive messes up even a little.

Now on the other hand, ranged bruisers have all these advantages and more. They have good stats, good mobility, good CC and the fantastic advantage of being ranged. These characters have duels and splitpushes almost on par with Melee bruisers while also not having the massive weakness of having to all in to deal damage. These characters are incredibly consistent in the value they bring to fights, and they scale well into late game. These characters are SM BP Vox and Kinetic. Vox has constant dashes to help his duels and kiting, alongside CC on his ult to keep him alive and good base damage from his B. Kinetic has a long-range stun and slow from her overdrive B, good base damage from her A and passive and one of the longest ranges in the game to top it off. It isn’t fun to play against a perfectly rounded character, who has damage, tankiness, CC, mobility and range, and Kinetic in particular is a massive offender.

The fundamental flaw

The main issue that this stems from is that all characters scale with a 100% ratio on their basic attacks. This is normal. A lot of MOBA’s are like this, but it also creates a problem where the innate advantage of being able to AA from range with the same scaling is so powerful that you need to compensate for it in other places. This problem becomes even more concerning in the late game where you can be blown up by the 5 members on the enemy team. Being melee and not building full tank is actually risky.
There are two main ways that games can solve this issue. The first is through items. I’ll be using League of Legends for this example. Bruiser items in League can be described as one thing: Bang for your buck. They do tons of damage for each one you complete and are seen as high-value purchases. However, there is one important thing to note: These purchases aren’t that good for most ADCs (Snipers). This is because many of them have passives that are less effective on ranged characters. Some items stack faster on melee characters (Guinsoo’s Rageblade), some items are less effective on ranged characters (Black Cleaver Movespeed) and some items are literally unpurchasable by ranged characters (Ravenous/Titanic Hydra).
Defence items are also like this. AOE Damage auras, movespeed engages, defensive actives scaling with your defensive stats, ect. This discourages ranged carries to build these defensive items other than the very few that are specialised towards them (which are focused on their passives, not their defensive stats). The combination of these two things cause ranged carries to build 5 damage items with a defensive passive or two, which gives them the weakness of being squishy, while still having the advantage of doing tons of damage from range.

Vainglory, on the other hand, solves the issue based on kit. Have you ever felt like every sniper feels quite similar? This is why.
If the items aren’t in favour of the melee characters, the only other thing to turn to is the abilities on the characters themselves. If you compare the abilities of a typical sniper (So in this case, I’m excluding Baron, SAW and Kestrel. More on this later.) compared to a bruiser like Kensei, you’ll see that Kensei has SOOOOOOO many more tools at his disposal, and they’re much more powerful too. Although a melee character being more complex isn’t anything new (Mainly because a melee character can have both melee and ranged abilities, whereas a ranged character with melee abilities would have a mostly dead ability), this reaches absurd levels in Vainglory. What does Ringo have really? He has a passive that’s good in the early game but loses relevance late game, he has a low damage slow, he has a buff and he has an ultimate that does mediocre damage for a long channel. Kensei? BARRIER ON 4 HITS. 3 CONSECUTIVE DASHES + ATTACKS. ENHANCED AA + ENHANCED ABILITIES. LONG DASH + POTENTIAL STUN. It feels night and day (specifically because I chose an example that would make it seem that way), but this is the problem when ranged carries can use WP items better than Melees. Just look at the way BP is set up, and you’ll see that the fact WP items need to be weaker for ranged characters is already in the game. If BP was the same for both Melee and Ranged, these ranged bruisers would be even worse.

The reason I exclude Baron, SAW and Kestrel is because their kits have interesting kits that can utilise the item system that VG currently has well. These characters have some sort of reason they are generally weak with 2 defence, whether because they have low mobility (SAW and Kestrel) or because they require damage to keep themselves safe (Baron)

Solution

If you’ve read the whole post up to this point, you probably know how to fix it, but I’ll go over my specific opinion.

  1. Never release a character like Kinetic again (High base damage, high range, good CC, strong scaling). Plus, remove the stun on her B overdrive + A combo, and have it be an unlock at 200 CP.
  2. Add more WP items with passives, specifically ones that help melee characters. SEMC has started with tank items already (Pulseweave and Rooks). Get to WP items.
  3. Nerf BP. Specifically for ranged characters. Enough said.
  4. Rework Aegis and Metal Jacket, or remove them. Instead, give WP carries an item that gives WP and a Reflex Block, and give CP carries something similar.
TL;DR

I hate WP Kinetic.

Afternote: If you ever talk to me, you MUST call Yates ‘YEETS’. This is 2 patches early, but I don’t care. His name is YEETS as long as you are in my presence.


#2

I’ve always felt like we need items to be different for ranged and melee. Not all but some and especially BP. Like BP needing a bit more damage to build up on ranged doesn’t make any difference. They do more damage anyway. Maybe make it have better build up on melees instead. Or make it scale up better on melees but also make it stack based on survival like the old BP (not the ridiculous stats though). a


#3

Make titanic/ravenous hydra :stuck_out_tongue:


#4

SM BP on ranged carries is pretty garbo considering that there is a cap on the lifesteal to the point that if you already do a lot of damage you should just pick up SB TM TM TT to delete your enemies. SM BP is only good if you are stuck in a 1v1 engagement (bot laner v top laner only). Since top laner is usually a captain hero they can obnoxiously clear minions quick and survive 1v1 engagements. The only really viable ranged carry that can use SM BP is Kinetic. SM BP TT is a super situational build on Vox because if you need those mortal wounds PS is more effective. SM BP TT on Vox is only a thing because of that AA damage buff on his A but PS BP SB/TB/TM/BS is still good and highly effective if the enemy has anyone that needs to be mortal wounded.

People have tried SM BP on Baron. It doesn’t work because that lifesteal is useless when you are squishy af. SM BP on Ringo doesn’t work because you are squishy af and you burn out all the lifesteal due to your insane attack speed, doesn’t do much damage either. SM BP on Gwen is never used and for a good reason because has the same problems as both Baron and Ringo but mixed together.

SAW, Kinetic, Skye, and Vox are all SM BP users and 3/4 are not toxic at all. Vox is still relatively squishy and if he’s fed and unapproachable its because thats the way they made his kit. To get fed as fast as possible and literally become untouchable. Skye has somewhat the same thing as Kinetic except she trades damage for mobility. SAW is useless due to the fact that he can get snowballed hard on.

I feel like your post is mostly directed towards Kinetic and just addresses the other WP carries when they really don’t fit into the problem you are trying to address. Kinetic is disgusting because she has so much range. The way her A and her perk works is highly counter-intuitive from a design standpoint for a balanced hero. So you want Kinetic to stack up in a fight? Then make her A have a lower range so she has to risk going in and getting them stacks, instead of just spamming that **** at the turret before a teamfight. Her Ult should also be global as well makes no sense why it isn’t considering the ability as designed fairly well as you can body-block it. Instead of using Caitlyn’s Ult they should have honestly copied Jinn’s Ult and made it so each stack becomes a bullet.

For your solutions:

  1. She overall feels like a really rushed hero and created just to become another bot lane hero. Her simple kit with a sad and very common way to make abilities “come together” makes it apparent. Unlike Anka, Kensei, and Malene balance was obviously out of the window especially because of that BP bug. (Anka is pretty balanced except I’d change the way her perk scales because she often does too little damage despite it being an obvious kill, Kensei is something that the PBE can’t test obviously because how many players are gonna become gods at him in like a week? He was created with the right intention but with the wrong numbers in the wrong place, Malene is just a busted kit if you were good with her you will always be good until drastic changes are made.).

  2. WP items are hopefully on the way considering we got CP then captain.

  3. BP is fine, its just Kinetic.

  4. People always complain about these two items when really there’s nothing wrong with them. Carries should be more careful anyways. Think about it like this. Becoming the best carry in the world. First you start off with two defense items (MJ and Aegis), then you do one defense item (Aegis/SH), and then no defense items. At the last point you’ve become practically surpassed everyone else in the game because you end games before 15 min mark or you kite/dodge too well.


#5

If this is sooooooooo good, why aren’t people building it ALL the time?
If SM BP on ranged carries is so bad, why are people building it constantly?
The reason SM BP is so strong is that it offers the most oppressive bot lane possible. Since most top laners are waveclear captains, generally these characters will go something like AS Tank, SC Tank or straight up full tank. Against these characters, SM BP is extremely effective since you can lifesteal over their base damage, stack BP against their 17 defence items and hopefully eventually actually kill them. These captain top laners DON’T HAVE MORTAL WOUNDS, which essentially means that the bot laner has a guaranteed victory in lane.

False. It works fine. You lose a little bit of early aggression for a superior late game. SM BP TM TT and a Husk. Survive the initial burst, lifesteal your health back. It’s a guaranteed way of staying alive long enough to get BP stacks.

This is currently true. I’ll talk about this point later.

So assuming that you’re saying Kinetic is the toxic character…
What?
You have never considered that maybe, just maybe, SAW is toxic to play against? Also when does SAW get snowballed hard on. He is the snowballer.
You have never considered that maybe, just maybe, Vox sitting under his turret farming for 25 minutes before ‘literally becoming untouchable’ isn’t toxic?
WP Skye is the only one which I personally don’t think is toxic and that’s because she’s an aggressive sniper. Her passive isn’t that good for kiting. She has to attac to be fast. And this only works when the Skye doesn’t have high damage. If a Skye is going to three tap you and it’s literally inescapable, that’s not fun. Fortunately that’s not the current state of the game.

INCORRECT. Other than the three carries I specifically mentioned have issues, and probably Ringo, I think that with the right amount of base damage every sniper has the ability to be a WP Bruiser. I was only using Kinetic because she is the worst offender in this current meta. I would have used Vox back in his meta 3v3 days with Shiv BP.

We actually agree on something. Hurray.
I do think her kit makes way more sense as a CP character. I would have been fine if they just released her exclusively CP. When she’s CP, she has obvious weaknesses and strengths that can be played around, such as her terrible waveclear and 1500 CP damage ult. CP is also much more fun.

Okay, so everything above this point was somewhat acceptable. Maybe you don’t think SM BP isn’t that good. Sure, fair enough. Maybe you haven’t played as a melee character against a Vox who sat under their turret, or maybe you play the few melee characters that can do something to him late game. Sure, fair enough.
But BP is not fine.
BP is built on almost every WP hero, at least in 5v5.
I honestly have trouble thinking of a character that doesn’t usually get BP second other than SAW. Joule, maybe? Krul can go without it, I guess. Ringo might not get it second, but saying he wouldn’t get it at all is a stretch. Tony just stacks Spellswords, so I guess he counts…
Yeah…
When an item is being built by 95% of the time (when going WP), it’s PROBABLY BROKEN. Even Aftershock, an item that’s considered toxic by many players, at the peak of it’s strength (Health Changes) still wasn’t bought by Celeste or Skaarf.
BP is stupid.

No good carry wouldn’t buy at least one defensive active/passive with them. You’re asking to get stunned by Guantlet or Cath A, blown up by a Baron double shot or Taka and chopped up by an Idris blinking and popping boots at you over the wall. Even if you play perfectly, there are some things that you’re going to need a block for. I don’t know why you included this. Even a tier 4 player could probably (well, more like HOPEFULLY) figure out how dumb it is to walk around with no defence when Anka exists. I actually thought you might have a point and that maybe I was wrong until you said this.


#6

I am calling Yates YEETS now thanks fam. But yeah we need more offense items with utility cause although the new items are great, they are only defensive utility items.


#7

Well as I said PS BP was always an optional build on other heroes but it was always good on Vox no matter what until the recent change. SM BP TT on Vox is more of the base build now, but when mortal wounds are needed then use PS BP. I feel like Vox, in particular, is rather weak in this patch anyway. Despite maintaining a high pick rate and a balanced WR he feels weak. Personally, haven’t had any problems with Vox being a top lane main. If SM BP is so powerful then all top laners should be buying Pulseweave first and MJ second. PW does so much damage for no reason and MJ would make the stacking process a bit slower. They don’t stack anything anyways if they don’t AA you. Due to everyone’s ranges Kinetic is the most avid SM BP user because she can AA you before you can get on her.

It doesn’t “work fine” when there is a much better build that involves SB BP TM TM. If an assassin lets Baron survive the initial burst it doesn’t really matter what build he has as long as it has some WP items thrown in their anyway. He’s gonna kill everyone late game.

Kinetic is the toxic hero because she is toxic.

SAW is toxic to play against when he reaches 8 stacks or so. Its possible to 1v1 him when he has nothing and his B makes him so vulnerable to anything especially when he doesn’t land it on you. If he snowballs he has to end game ASAP before late game happens.

Vox’s range is garbage. If he’s able to sit under turret and farm its because someone pushed the minions all the way in. He can’t even attack you while you are under turret unlike Kinetic. And maybe I said something wrong but when I said that Vox becomes untouchable its more directed to when he has more gold than anyone else because he is able to buy the items he needs before you can. It’s kind of a general thing for all heroes but Vox abuses it best because of the slow on his pulse and his dashes.

Skye would have probably an increased base damage as her next buff but that would also be directly buffing CP Skye lane and its become pretty evident that they don’t wanna do that so they probably won’t do it.

To be a WP bruiser you need to have the right base defenses. Having a 20-50 base defense is pretty low and that number is common among all ranged WP heroes so they are never really bruisers but can be bullies. The reason why SM BP is used on actual bruisers is because they will go in and probably not go out until they kill or get killed. The BP stacks faster and the SM lifesteals more. On a ranged hero this process will be really slow unless you are a Kinetic who can maintain damage every second.

BP is just a versatile item. If it stacks its good. The stacking takes effort too.

It was more of an unreachable goal rather than something people should be targeting towards. Its obviously possible considering that you can slow and stutter step. The last one is a step beyond VG gold where if someone had that much mechanical power then they would be banned from tourneys and stuff.

I disagree with you entirely except for the Kinetic part and your argument is really Kinetic orientated. Until the day I get hammered by a SM BP TT Vox I won’t agree with this.

I was originally a bot laner but when the top laner repeatedly manages to feed it just pissed me off so much that I slowly played top lane more and more and more. And I didn’t play the “survive and protect.” I played “kill, steal jungle, take turret.” I play utility heroes but also WP Taka, WP Idris, BF, Reza, and some other people when I feel like it. And thats in 2500+ ELO so I have at least some experience with the all-powerful “SM BP” build.