PSA: VG Isn't Dying

thats cool! the only other good esports game i play (LoL) basically has SEA in a way different environment thanks to garena :c

I think TSM did one of the better jobs of promoting VG to an external audience of the franchised orgs. But Flash claims they made more content than all the other franchised orgs put together - thats just false.

it isn’t dieing, and it isn’t growing. its the same. VG is that tiny indian grocery store in the slums that will always be there, never improving, never dieing.


Actually, I’m pretty certain the player base is growing. However, my theory (which is supported by numerous clues but which is in no way proven) is that the growth is made up of less serious players, while there’s a significant loss among players who are very serious about the game.

I believe that’s why it FEELS to many of us that the game is dying: there are fewer of “us” (serious players, who hang out discussing the game when we’re not playing) than there used to be.

SEMC has touted the game’s growth since 5v5. However, I submit that it is the wrong kind of growth for the long-term viability of the game.


It is for long term, but in short term it is great especially with how many are buying stuff. Hopefully the use any income from casuals to improve on the little things that attract the whales and other serious types.


That’s the big question … are all these new players actually spending on the game?

I have no idea, and SEMC will never tell us, so it’s all speculation.

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My definition of Growth is Visible, Financial. Global Impact. They’ve set goals they have yet to achieve.
All decisions thus far is to keep the player base happy. which is fine.

I just think they lack leadership and confidence in decision making. There’s so many Low cost, high reward business strategies they could do… but don’t.

Yet they choose they High risk, high reward strategies, that didn’t pay off. Their only saving grace is they really are ahead of the competition in terms of graphics and Touch screen. So why doesn’t it translate into business growth? Lack of promotion, among other things.

There’s hope with all those partnerships they’re been doing recently. I really hope they pull off something Great. Something that’ll make the world go WOW, i want in.

they really need the player base to grow to the millions per server… youtube views, etc.

Create a cinematic to be remembered for the ages. when i think of starcraft and warcraft… I still have vivid crystal clear pictures of the amazing Scenes of marines gunning down the Zerg…

They need that. They need a WOW factor. and they need it yesterday.


I agree with all of this except for one line:

I think many of their decisions are made to make PART of the player base happy. The reason that many veterans are leaving/have left is because they have generally catered to pros and very high tier players, which is a tiny fraction of their player base.

A major failing on SEMC’s part, and what has caused a large number of those folks to leave is the complete neglect of guilds and teams for almost two years as well as the complete lack of any kind of progression once you’ve been playing for any length of time.

There’s lots to interest new players, but little (other than the matches themselves) to keep people engaged after they’ve been playing a while.

Tencent gets it. Even Moonton gets it. I can’t understand why SEMC doesn’t.

Editorial comment

I think it’s hubris on SEMC’s part. They feel they have the best game, so people SHOULD stay engaged as a matter of course, guilds and teams be damned.

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All obviously not, but during the BR event i played with a lot of no rank from last season people with skins that aren’t easy to obtain unless paid for and earning that much ice without a rank seems unlikely. This is just based on my observations in playing though so I have no real way of proving this, or at least no ethical or legal way


Well, the success of the decisions they make is another matter completely. As you pointed out, alot of veterans are leaving. My statement still stands true, even if they are failing to do justice to the veterans who have been there from the beginning.

Bad decisions or good decisions… it’s still a bid to keep players happy. The recent Esports affiliate program drop isn’t doing very well for their publicity. Is it a good or bad decision? only time will tell… hopefully good, larger prize pool, more investment into advertising… etc.

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Which is the opposite of what they want as pro’s and high tiers are the portion of the playerbase which they ultimately lose money on.

As of right now because of lack of communication it is a bad desicion. In reality the game is not ready for esports, especially with the netwrk issues. Once they polish the game, fix the network issues, balance a little better(at this point would mean undoung most balance changes), and diversitize the heros more the game has a great esport potential.

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All this discussion has given me a light bulb moment.

What has super fast network connections and can handle a small group of (10-30) users? LAN.

VG with the ability to be a server (host) over a wifi network… like in World’s… it would catch on.
this is pretty much how the original Multiplayer experience grew into popularity.

There would be ZERO lag, seriously zero, maybe 3ms… 10ms would be a lag spike.

playing with a small group of friends at a LAN PARTY… ordering a dozen pizzas at 11pm to last all night into the morning… 2 Litre bottles of your favourite soft drink…

Vg staff probably do this already and having tonns of fun. We should have a similar experience. I remember using a dial-up connection to play Starcraft with a friend 1v1… even though it was slow, because I had a appreciation of how the game is suppose to be, it didn’t bother me.

Give us LAN capabilities. To host our own Games internally.

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IYes this would also eliminate lag factor for esports

Interestingly most pro and high tier players would disagree with this and point at all the game changes which cater to lower skill players - they certainly don’t feel catered to.

I suspect thats partially due to a perception bias we all have - where there is a narrow band of things we agreee with and a wide band we disagree with and we tend to see the wide band more easily. This explains the interesting research which shows that people tend to believe news programmes are biased against whatever political beliefs they happen to hold - because they percieve the news that goes against those views more strongly.

That said I agree with the hubris comment - there is an aspect of that.


I agree that lack of communication is an ongoing problem for them.

Hero balance is however pretty good when compared to most mobas in terms of the variance in hero win rates so I am not sure what issue you have with the game balancing?


Interesting idea, for live events they basically bring along a server which allows for this (at Worlds I got to hold the server that it was played on).

Ironically because of wifi and building design there is a far bit of lag depending on which part of the building you are playing in at the Lair…

I suspect though that these lan parties would be a small percentage of overall games played - its a lot of faff to organise.

it is alot of fussing about to set up, but it would grow popular very fast. There’s whole business’s based around this very idea (internet Cafe’s). The rise of multiplayer games at internet cafe’s are still largely popular, even 20+ years since they started, its a proven platform.

It can be modified to accomodate for WIFI… people walk in, connect with their device, play games… What other world wide phenomenon as a similar feature? Pokemon GO. people traveling around the world to hotspots to duel each other…

VG could have clans based on WIFI location. ELO can be sync’ed to the server via 4g. It would work , it would reduce lag, it would get people talking (physically, in person). it would spread like wild fire.


My big problem is the overbalancing they do when if you never would have done uch balancing the hero stats would be more diverse but still balance out. Minor tweaks are always needed but it seems when they Nerf someone they overdo it and when buffing they do it too much. Not to mention most nerfs are based on a exploited deleted storm of people who don’t understand gameplay or having a hard time admitting they aren’t playing perfect and have difficulty adapting to a match up.

Player demand, comments here, twitter, reddit etc have little to no impact on hero balancing.

Initial identification of heroes/items that need changing are done based on winrates on live at all tiers with special emphasis on winrates at higher tiers. Broadly the aim is to have all heroes have a 50% winrate and more generally that their winrates fall between 55% and 45% (except for counter pick heroes - they can have higher winrates).

Once those heroes are identified initial balance changes are proposed by the live balance team (these are typically numbers adjustments, kit changes typically take a few patches to go through and are avoided if possible).

These then go into Phase 1 PBE where the hero balance changes are tested by high tier players if they are too much in terms of their impact on the viability of the hero they are tweaked or the changes are reverted.

Testing happens six days a week for usually 4-8 hours a day (well usually a night) with new iterations of changes most days.

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Did you sing it sweet lullabies? Did you feed it well?

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