Balance changes issue

[MobileLegendPlayer]

Nah, just simply nerf her dmg, or stun duration in her B and boom she’s balanced

[Blissey123]

To be fair her stun duration when overdrived is pretty long…

Stun Duration down to 1.3 seconds

OR

CP ratio of Supernova down from 200 to 180

BOOM balanced

[LamDumbasspro]

Problem is no one would ever overdrive her B and her stun without overdriving is 1s. That’s longer than Catherine and Glaive.

[MobileLegendPlayer]

Her stun should be 0.45 and 0.7 when overdriven.
Idk I just hate her so much because I can’t play her well lol

[Blissey123]

lols her stun shouldn’t be so short for the following reasons.

Celeste relies completely on her stun to stay alive when she is ganked. Making it too short will make her to easy to counter when it is already difficult enough to land her stun

The stun is already difficult to land when the enemy is chasing you. Me as a Celeste main myself took a long time to master the positioning of her core collapse for it to actually land. Missing it is actually horrible because it has a long cooldown, making celeste vulnerable for the next 6 seconds.

So it shouldn’t be nerfed too much. I would rather nerf her scaling on her supernova slighly because no other hero in the game has such a spammable ability with such high CP ratio. It should be 180 or 170 and then it will be acceptable.

[Satanicsoldier]

@idmonfish didn’t you already explain they do it in a previous post with @LamDumbasspro

Edit: yes he did

@idmonfish

Addressing some misconceptions regarding balancing in VG

So apart from being a moderator here and the coach of a pro team (Renegades) I am also part of the core testing group, one of two captains in the PBE and a long standing member of Phase 1 PBE (I’ve been playtesting regularly for over 2 years now). I have also visited the Lair and met up with Nivmett and the other folk involved in balance, and was lucky enough to be there the day that a patch dropped and that a hotfix was deemed necessary (Reza - on release was significantly underpowered) so I have seen how that decision was made, and was invited as a playtester to contribute my thoughts on the proposed buffs to make Reza viable.

So broadly speaking, outside of people at SEMC themselves, I think I have one of the better understandings of how balance decisions are made, what the process is, who is involved and so on.

There are actually two balance teams at SEMC - the live balance team and the new heroes/items team. The PBE serves as the intersection of these two groups - with Nivmett at the pointy end of balancing (along with Nightwalker59 who also runs the PBE more directly than Niv now does).

It is worth noting when balancing you have to take into consideration 3 things - the overall game environment (ie if we change the health of turrets what are the impacts of that?), changes to items, and changes both directly to a hero and to heroes who interact with them. So its like a web where changing one node of that web has flow on effects on the rest of the web. Its not as simple as “buff Skye to counter X” because if you do so you will find out that making one of the best mobility heroes in the game strong is very very oppressive…

It is also worth noting that the changes that can be made by the balance team are limited - changes that are basically tweaks to numbers are much preferred to kit changes because these can be tweaked directly by the balance team whereas kit changes cost programming time from elsewhere, require approval from higher up and typically take several patches before they can be implemented. Enviromental changes and item changes are similar - number tweaking is much easier than changing how something works, both are easier than changing how something looks.

So how is hero balancing done each patch?

Firstly the live balance team identifies heroes that may need tweaking - they do this by looking at the data on winrates at all tiers both seperately and together. The broad aim is to have all heroes within 5% of a 50% winrate - with up to 10% for heroes who are primarily counter pick heroes such as Reim or Petal. This is passed onto the PBE team who consults with the new hero, items and gameplay team to get changes from them and the potential flow through of those changes onto other heroes and other aspects of game balance, along with any kit changes which are going to be tested and so on. From this an initial set of changes are developed and then put into the PBE. The PBE members get informed what the changes are and why they are being made and then we playtest with balanced parties to see whether the changes are too much, too little or just right. Based on the winrates, player feedback and observation, the PBE team tweaks the numbers and tries again the following day. This usually starts about a week after a patch drops and continues until a week before the new patch drops, with a new build and playtesting typically 6 days a week.

How about new heroes - there will have been months of tweaking, redesigning and internal playtesting before a new hero hits the PBE. When they do they usually reach Phase 1 testing first - Phase 1 tests not just probably changes to the game, but also things that are being experimented with such as new items etc - so most of the new stuff you see in Phase 1 won’t make it into the game. Phase 1 consists of around 100 players - almost all very high level in terms of their skill level, understanding of the game and dedication to playtesting - many playtest for several hours every day. Its not uncommon for a new hero to hit Phase one without a character model yet (usually they use Rona or Catherine as a substitute) and with a defined kit but with a couple of options on how that kit might be implemented (Flicker for example could have had a much weaker slow + root when it ended on his B and a pool of silence on his A or the kit we all now know). And the initial testing is regarding which kit is “more fun” - so its about how it feels, what roles we can make it work for etc. Then the kit is locked and it becomes about tweaking the numbers to make the hero balanced, working out what they interact with and so on. Phase 2 becomes involved at this stage, bringing in about 500 more players for testing.

It is fundamentally harder to balance new heroes than existing heroes however because you don’t have the data yet to figure out exactly where they sit - take on release Reza as an example - the general feeling in the PBE prerelease was that Reza was a balanced hero - on release 35% winrate… Why? Because he is a high risk high reward hero, so high skill players are much better placed to utilize his kit fully. He needed some buffs to make him a bit more forgiving for lower skill players, whilst also not being too good at higher level of play. Typically balance changes will be made over the next few patches to bring a new hero in line with the target winrate.

Finally balance decisions are made within a nexus of pressures - SEMC don’t want to release a new hero who is deeply UP because it supresses their sales for months even if you hotfix them, likewise they don’t want to release an OP hero because it makes the game less fun and more work for the balance team down the track. However at the same time the hero designer wants to protect their beautiful new creation and keep them to their vision, so changes have to be in line with that.

Balance in VG is actually impressively good - easily on par with Dota2 and LoL and historically has typically been better than them (back in 3v3 only days) probably because of the smaller set of heroes. This can be determined by looking at winrate variance between heroes. Yes sometimes heroes are too strong or too weak - but if thats the case they will usually be addressed within a patch or two.

[MobileLegendPlayer]

Yes, nerf her one way or another
But lets be real, her B is the strongest defensive skill among all mid laners, her dmg potential puts every mages to shame, with just 1 ult she can make the entire team back off or turn the tide of teamfights. Even Lorelai’s stun isn’t that long and has more delay to it

[LamDumbasspro]

Problem is the balancing is deteriorating over the years. You can check old patches and compare 'em to the current ones.

[LamDumbasspro]

You are essentially Baron CP 2.0 because your A is a hitscan, your B is engage instead of evade and your ult is easier to aim and it deals a shit ton of damage.

[Moose]

I think the change to subtler balance nerfs or buffs shows a progression, and a great one at that, instead of a deterioration.

Also Celeste is not OP. Well played, she is a menace in mid lane but I would argue the amount of viable counters keep her relatively in check. She’s a high skill hero, which means higher tiers play her well. However, higher tier players know how to outplay her just fine. I don’t know about you, but her A animation is pretty easy to dodge if you’re watching the ground, her B is easy to dodge and usually predictable and her ult is the easiest ult to dodge or RB. Also, most can see the ring of her range and know which already-placed As to avoid. Simply, she’s ban-worthy but not nerf-worthy

[ThePinkOtter]

@Moose

her B is easy to dodge

IF used aggressively, I agree. A good ping and a mobility ability can get you out of almost every B. However, if used defensively, it’s quite difficult to actually dodge. A good Celeste will be able to hit most melee divers by placing it at the end of their first dash. This forces them to either pop a RB OR to use another mobility ability (if they CAN use another mobility ability). This basically forces divers to spend extra resources to dive Celeste compared to other mages (Skaarf only really needs boots, Varya needs to channel, Baron exclusively has one escape and can be punished easily afterwards, ect.).

@Moose

her ult is the easiest ult to dodge or RB.

If you have the correct vision, then yes. Long range Celeste ults aren’t particularly hard to dodge. But in teamfights, Celeste ult is often impossible to dodge, and it chunks incredibly hard. And considering that Celeste and many of her teammates require your RB to dodge their CC, it’s often not a good idea to RB it, or your RB won’t be up.

Celeste does have counters (such as BF or Taco), but she is so oppressive against characters she counters/should be neutral against that it’s insane.

Also seriously I’ve killed/been killed from 80% with/by her ult before that thing is not okay.

[LamDumbasspro]

Problem is the part well-played and she’s a menace right there. You see, us T6S-T7Gs have watched a lot of pro vids to learn and we have learned to master 1 hero and when you master Celeste, she’s straight up OP. And besides, Celeste’s counters have always been away from the Rise or the Fold. Every damn counter has been banned or now is too weak to play. Amirite @ThePinkOtter ?
Btw the deterioration here is that we don’t have explainations for the buffs and nerfs. Sometimes the buffs/nerfs are just stupid but they don’t give us explainations.

[ThePinkOtter]

@LamDumbasspro

Every damn counter has been banned or now is too weak to play.

I’d say the best counter you can ACTUALLY GET in soloQ is Blackfeather, but he isn’t particularly consistent. He’s a great target to camp since he’s melee, squishy, and doesn’t have a real escape till level 6. Compared to a character such as Celeste, he has way more weaknesses and can’t really be picked early.
Koshka and Krul can possibly gank a Celeste to stop her getting to late game, but mid laners have the safest lane from ganks and Celeste doesn’t need to play aggressively. If needed, a Celeste can just farm under tower and be relatively safe throughout the game.

[Satanicsoldier]

Wp grace counters Celeste

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[ThePinkOtter]

@Satanicsoldier

Wp grace counters Celeste

Incorrect.
Although a powerhouse, WP grace has difficulties into Celeste. This is because of how predictable her dash is, and how she only has one mobility ability. It’s very easy to simply put down a B and then run away, and boots if needed. After this, she can generally rely on her team to dissuade any further dives.
Plus, if you try to lane against Celeste as WP Grace, she’s one of the very few characters that can actually zone and trade against you, because of how ridiculous her damage is, so it’s much more difficult to gain an early advantage against her than a laner such as Vox.

[Alhunt]

Did you guys watch the game between hammers and TSM? Hammers easily won draft, getting the Ardan-Celeste-Krul combo that’s so deadly, yet they lost hard, in part because of how hard their Celeste was shut down (and Chuck completely outtraded her with his Samuel). A lot of the reasons why people want her nerfed is either they can’t play her or they can’t deal with her. Every assassin is good into her, most mid laners outtrade her early (in fact I’d say all except cp Idris) and she’s very vulnerable to heavy dive like Fortress, Rona, BF. She will also lose 1v1 to ADCs so if she’s caught out she’s pretty much toast.

[LamDumbasspro]

Problem here is in 5v5, most ADCs are too busy splitpushing bot lane and by the time they have taken the first turret, it’s already at the 7th minute. Celeste is OK at that point. And bro, every diver is also helping bot lane successfully push the first turret within that 7 minutes.
Btw, assasins are good into every laner so we can throw that aside.

[Glowarm]

I’m sure they take into consideration ban, pick and win rates for hero’s when they make balance changes.

Celeste doesn’t have an unusually high win rate in fact she’s not in the top 5 on any server. She’s also not on the top 5 ban rate for any server, sure she gets played a lot, sure she is a spam monster late game with huge DMG, but seems none of this has made her OP. It’s not a case of pick Celeste and win, she is very squishy, not especially mobile and if targeted doesn’t last long in team fights.

Personally enjoy the fact she is back in the meta, she’s not been a top lane choice for months.

[MobileLegendPlayer]

Samuel has lower pick rate and win rate than Celeste and somehow he gets a nerf while Celeste is untouched
I have lots of things to say that ur wrong but Idk how I can describe my idea. My guild mates and friends are surprised when Cel gets no nerf

[Blissey123]

Celeste is near 100% pick/ban rate in the VGL for good reason: the pros know how to play her. She was a meta carry before(2.7) so they learned her. The also know how dangerous she is in the right hands.

But in lower tiers, she is quite laughable because of her high skill cap in the terms of landing her a and running away from dives. She only starts to become a threat at T6(where I am atm) where players who play her actually know how to play her and they know how to counter pick her counters.

This all in all makes her winrate pretty balanced. There are still counters of celeste who aren’t off meta like BF and her potential is insane but we also have to remember that Malene is coming out next patch and she may change the mage meta forever, we don’t know.

So I think it was a good idea to for SEMC to let her stay where she is. The meta might shift violenty with Malene’s introduction to the Sovereign’s Rise.