Balance changes issue

[LamDumbasspro]

I think SEMC do these changes based on mostly the popularity and the win rate of the heroes at lower tiers, not the power and play style. Sometimes, heroes who are super strong in high tiers don’t even get a nerf but a buff and sometimes the opposite. E.g Alpha in high tiers get shredded quite easily compared to low tiers. Another one is Celeste who is OP AF these patches and she hasn’t got a nerf. Yeah. Idk, just rethink about it.

[Blissey123]

Just incase no one has noticed yet, SEMC seems to favour to Celeste compared to other carries. When she becomes OP (Like in 1…22,1.23,1.24,2.0) they let her become OP for a few updates THEN they nerf her. They will do the same. Another example is in 2.7, in where her FROSTBURN+EOH+CLOCKWORK build became popular, and it continued to be popular till 2.9.

Kestrel on the other hand SEMC seems to nerf Kestrel the update right after she becomes OP.

It is really weird.

And it something that Celeste mains like me abuse

[LamDumbasspro]

They favor buffing their mains. They main Celeste so they buff Celeste to god tier level of bullshit.

[Blissey123]

Not really the only buff that she had was to her range.
They actually nerfed her supernova CP ratio…

[LamDumbasspro]

Then they made a mistake by increasing her A range.

[Blissey123]

They had to, remember? They exchange meelee heroes with higher movement speed with extra range to ranged heroes it makes sense.

[LamDumbasspro]

But now it’s ridiculously long.

[Blissey123]

0.5 range difference is nothing

[MobileLegendPlayer]

It makes lots of difference tbh. Celeste feels very safe to play with that buff

[Blissey123]

Well in the early game ya.
How about in the early game:
range down from 7.5 to 7
but the over drive stays the same?

[MobileLegendPlayer]

Nah, just simply nerf her dmg, or stun duration in her B and boom she’s balanced

[Blissey123]

To be fair her stun duration when overdrived is pretty long…

Stun Duration down to 1.3 seconds

OR

CP ratio of Supernova down from 200 to 180

BOOM balanced

[LamDumbasspro]

Problem is no one would ever overdrive her B and her stun without overdriving is 1s. That’s longer than Catherine and Glaive.

[MobileLegendPlayer]

Her stun should be 0.45 and 0.7 when overdriven.
Idk I just hate her so much because I can’t play her well lol

[Blissey123]

lols her stun shouldn’t be so short for the following reasons.

Celeste relies completely on her stun to stay alive when she is ganked. Making it too short will make her to easy to counter when it is already difficult enough to land her stun

The stun is already difficult to land when the enemy is chasing you. Me as a Celeste main myself took a long time to master the positioning of her core collapse for it to actually land. Missing it is actually horrible because it has a long cooldown, making celeste vulnerable for the next 6 seconds.

So it shouldn’t be nerfed too much. I would rather nerf her scaling on her supernova slighly because no other hero in the game has such a spammable ability with such high CP ratio. It should be 180 or 170 and then it will be acceptable.

[Satanicsoldier]

@idmonfish didn’t you already explain they do it in a previous post with @LamDumbasspro

Edit: yes he did

@idmonfish

Addressing some misconceptions regarding balancing in VG

So apart from being a moderator here and the coach of a pro team (Renegades) I am also part of the core testing group, one of two captains in the PBE and a long standing member of Phase 1 PBE (I’ve been playtesting regularly for over 2 years now). I have also visited the Lair and met up with Nivmett and the other folk involved in balance, and was lucky enough to be there the day that a patch dropped and that a hotfix was deemed necessary (Reza - on release was significantly underpowered) so I have seen how that decision was made, and was invited as a playtester to contribute my thoughts on the proposed buffs to make Reza viable.

So broadly speaking, outside of people at SEMC themselves, I think I have one of the better understandings of how balance decisions are made, what the process is, who is involved and so on.

There are actually two balance teams at SEMC - the live balance team and the new heroes/items team. The PBE serves as the intersection of these two groups - with Nivmett at the pointy end of balancing (along with Nightwalker59 who also runs the PBE more directly than Niv now does).

It is worth noting when balancing you have to take into consideration 3 things - the overall game environment (ie if we change the health of turrets what are the impacts of that?), changes to items, and changes both directly to a hero and to heroes who interact with them. So its like a web where changing one node of that web has flow on effects on the rest of the web. Its not as simple as “buff Skye to counter X” because if you do so you will find out that making one of the best mobility heroes in the game strong is very very oppressive…

It is also worth noting that the changes that can be made by the balance team are limited - changes that are basically tweaks to numbers are much preferred to kit changes because these can be tweaked directly by the balance team whereas kit changes cost programming time from elsewhere, require approval from higher up and typically take several patches before they can be implemented. Enviromental changes and item changes are similar - number tweaking is much easier than changing how something works, both are easier than changing how something looks.

So how is hero balancing done each patch?

Firstly the live balance team identifies heroes that may need tweaking - they do this by looking at the data on winrates at all tiers both seperately and together. The broad aim is to have all heroes within 5% of a 50% winrate - with up to 10% for heroes who are primarily counter pick heroes such as Reim or Petal. This is passed onto the PBE team who consults with the new hero, items and gameplay team to get changes from them and the potential flow through of those changes onto other heroes and other aspects of game balance, along with any kit changes which are going to be tested and so on. From this an initial set of changes are developed and then put into the PBE. The PBE members get informed what the changes are and why they are being made and then we playtest with balanced parties to see whether the changes are too much, too little or just right. Based on the winrates, player feedback and observation, the PBE team tweaks the numbers and tries again the following day. This usually starts about a week after a patch drops and continues until a week before the new patch drops, with a new build and playtesting typically 6 days a week.

How about new heroes - there will have been months of tweaking, redesigning and internal playtesting before a new hero hits the PBE. When they do they usually reach Phase 1 testing first - Phase 1 tests not just probably changes to the game, but also things that are being experimented with such as new items etc - so most of the new stuff you see in Phase 1 won’t make it into the game. Phase 1 consists of around 100 players - almost all very high level in terms of their skill level, understanding of the game and dedication to playtesting - many playtest for several hours every day. Its not uncommon for a new hero to hit Phase one without a character model yet (usually they use Rona or Catherine as a substitute) and with a defined kit but with a couple of options on how that kit might be implemented (Flicker for example could have had a much weaker slow + root when it ended on his B and a pool of silence on his A or the kit we all now know). And the initial testing is regarding which kit is “more fun” - so its about how it feels, what roles we can make it work for etc. Then the kit is locked and it becomes about tweaking the numbers to make the hero balanced, working out what they interact with and so on. Phase 2 becomes involved at this stage, bringing in about 500 more players for testing.

It is fundamentally harder to balance new heroes than existing heroes however because you don’t have the data yet to figure out exactly where they sit - take on release Reza as an example - the general feeling in the PBE prerelease was that Reza was a balanced hero - on release 35% winrate… Why? Because he is a high risk high reward hero, so high skill players are much better placed to utilize his kit fully. He needed some buffs to make him a bit more forgiving for lower skill players, whilst also not being too good at higher level of play. Typically balance changes will be made over the next few patches to bring a new hero in line with the target winrate.

Finally balance decisions are made within a nexus of pressures - SEMC don’t want to release a new hero who is deeply UP because it supresses their sales for months even if you hotfix them, likewise they don’t want to release an OP hero because it makes the game less fun and more work for the balance team down the track. However at the same time the hero designer wants to protect their beautiful new creation and keep them to their vision, so changes have to be in line with that.

Balance in VG is actually impressively good - easily on par with Dota2 and LoL and historically has typically been better than them (back in 3v3 only days) probably because of the smaller set of heroes. This can be determined by looking at winrate variance between heroes. Yes sometimes heroes are too strong or too weak - but if thats the case they will usually be addressed within a patch or two.

[MobileLegendPlayer]

Yes, nerf her one way or another
But lets be real, her B is the strongest defensive skill among all mid laners, her dmg potential puts every mages to shame, with just 1 ult she can make the entire team back off or turn the tide of teamfights. Even Lorelai’s stun isn’t that long and has more delay to it

[LamDumbasspro]

Problem is the balancing is deteriorating over the years. You can check old patches and compare 'em to the current ones.

[LamDumbasspro]

You are essentially Baron CP 2.0 because your A is a hitscan, your B is engage instead of evade and your ult is easier to aim and it deals a shit ton of damage.

[Moose]

I think the change to subtler balance nerfs or buffs shows a progression, and a great one at that, instead of a deterioration.

Also Celeste is not OP. Well played, she is a menace in mid lane but I would argue the amount of viable counters keep her relatively in check. She’s a high skill hero, which means higher tiers play her well. However, higher tier players know how to outplay her just fine. I don’t know about you, but her A animation is pretty easy to dodge if you’re watching the ground, her B is easy to dodge and usually predictable and her ult is the easiest ult to dodge or RB. Also, most can see the ring of her range and know which already-placed As to avoid. Simply, she’s ban-worthy but not nerf-worthy