posted in the original Vainglory Forums 15 August 2016 by @Magmaw
archived by @TheGrangorPotato
I don’t like Eve as a first item on Celeste for many reasons. I’m tired of having this argument with people, so this will probably look like a rant. I have been effectively shouted down/muted by POA players playing the tier card on me. Ironically, the pros disagree with said Poa players. I can count the number of times from Pro games that I saw Eve picked up first on a carry besides Reim, and many times it appeared to be a mistake. None of them were on Celeste either.
Everything here is imo, ofc, except where things are hard numbers, or how Celeste is supposed to be used (others seem to agree too).
so I will oblige
If you think Eve of Harvest is a good first Tier 3 on Celeste, you don’t know what you are doing, especially with Celeste. I don’t care what your tier is.
Oh, and I won’t bother responding if you clearly haven’t thought things through, or just didn’t read. If you want an elaboration on my TL; DR, then keep reading. Sorry.
The logical standpoint is the easiest, for me at least. Every proponent of Eve as an early item on Celeste has (only ever) cited “sustain”. I will be charitable enough to assume they mean the life-steal and not the energy for 2 reasons:
- Eve gains about 1 energy regen over Void Battery, and 2. You should NOT be spamming your abilities with Celeste unless necessary. Farm with your AAs unless you need to quickly waveclear.
Lifesteal is not dismissed so quickly, after all it IS pretty important for some characters – Rona, Krul, Glaive, Reim, Blackfeather… but oh wait. Those guys are all built tanky. What about Celeste? You know, the squishy mage with the defenses like soggy noodles? Kinda a waste of time to make her a sustained damage tank, imo. If you think Celeste is a good tanky sustained hero, then I have a WP Phinn build for you. It works for Skaarf, Reim, and Celeste too, I promise.
The only ranged characters I can see viably rush lifesteal items are Saw and Reim. And that’s because Saw is a god, and is capable of insane damage when buffed. Celeste is nowhere near as lucky. Even pro Reims seem to rush Myth a lot of the time now.
What is Celeste’s role? To output massive AOE damage from the backline. Far away from interference. Teammates should help peel if necessary, Celeste should be focusing on hovering at the EDGE of her Helio/Nova range, and outputting nukes onto the opponents. Core Collapse is a last ditch defense alongside Reflex Block, or if you can catch all your opponents for your team. Solar Storm is for sniping or wiping clumped opponents. Notice there is nothing in there about eating damage. Yes, that’s right. If Celeste is taking damage from a non-ranged character, something is going wrong with your team, and probably you. If you are taking damage from carries late-game, you are either ambushed, trapped, fighting a (good) Skye/Skaarf, or your team is not able to do their job. The whole point of using Celeste is to be a glass cannon that annihilates opponents before they can reach her. For Celeste, defense is offense. The life-steal should literally be virtually useless for you. In the rare case that you want the life-steal to survive 3 clumped up opponents on low health, don’t you think it’s better to kill them all faster, instead of shoring up your meager defenses?
More astute readers will probably notice that I have left out Skaarf and Skye from the earlier list of lifesteal users. I got you here now. Skye is 1. Far more mobile, and 2, can have a far easier time landing abilities. This means she can afford to be caught by opponents, and can more reliably heal back some health. NOBODY rushes Eve on her, ever. Not even most noobs. Likewise, Skaarf is a slightly more forgiving version of Celeste, but he has far more consistent CP damage, its feasible to try to sustain, especially his C. With that said, the best players tend to get a Broken Myth first, not Eve.
Celeste is based on stepped damage – you want to kill the opponents in as few hits as possible. Not string it out and give the opponents time to reach you. To take this to an extreme – if you could land one hit on the opponents, would you make it as strong as possible? Or would you try to improve your tankiness a little at the cost of a LOT of raw hitting power?
Now, let’s look at it from a monetary perspective. Eve of Harvest costs 850 Gold to upgrade from both Tier 2 items. I personally think a Tier 2 battery is excessive for that stage of the game. Assuming you are don’t take much damage on Celeste, the lifesteal is moot. So, that means you spent 850 Gold on +1 Energy Regen. Kinda silly, huh? How about if we factor out the Tier 2 Battery as well? Then it becomes 1250 gold for energy regen you shouldn’t need, and lifesteal you shouldn’t need. Woah. I think I would rather forgo a few potions and get an extra Heavy Prism, which only costs 1350 gold. Looks silly right? This is BEFORE we assume to have completed another Tier 3 item.
Now let’s look at 1 completed Tier 3 apiece for the different Celeste builds. (I will skip Broken Myth since it is generally considered superior to Shatterglass, and comparing it to anything else is just boring with an obvious outcome.)
Shatterglass gives us a flat +150 cp. It costs a flat 3000 Gold. A battery costs 300, so a total of 3300 gold, and adds 150 max energy, and +1.5 energy recharge.
Eve of Harvest costs 2900. This means we have 400 gold extra. Let’s use it on a Crystal Bit and 4 potions. This gives us 75 Crystal Power, the lifesteal, +250 max energy, and +5 energy recharge.
So the differences in the builds:
(Shatterglass) +75 pwr to Heliogenesis, and +165 pwr to the Nova.
(Eve first) – Lifesteal, 4 potions, +100 max energy, and +3.5 energy recharge.
Ok, the energy is important if you are forced to spam abilities and potions are not enough, I‘ll give you that. But the lifesteal should be worthless, no? And for energy, aren’t you better off getting a Clockwork now?
Personally, I would advocate either a Shatterglass or a Myth rushed on Celeste. Shatterglass is if you think you will have fast engagements, or will trade a lot in lane. Myth is first if you think you will have a lot of drawn out fights. Frostburn is alright if you can safely land Auto attacks onto opponents, or you struggle to hit them with your Novas, but I think the slow is unnecessary for a skilled Celeste. If you don’t need Frostburn to kill a Skye, you certainly don’t need it to kill Ringo or Reim.
Oh, and pls don’t take this thread as a reason to avoid getting boots and at least a Reflex Block. Pls. ;-;
As always, I am open to discussion, provided you bother trying to read my post first. I’m not going to bother responding if it’s obvious that you are being illogical, stubborn, or just have a short attention span.