What If: Vainglory II

[Lebatron]

Random thoughts - but I wonder what if SEMC tried again. Here’s what I envision… (scroll down for TLDR recap)

• SEMC admits it made mistakes… Pushed for cross platform too hard when they already had a solid mobile product that still needed polishing and could’ve blown up… They had a unique and passionate 3v3 niche they ignored… Their UI and guild system was crap… (I’m a firm believer that most people, even if upset/offended by mistakes made, gain a lot of respect toward those who swallow their pride and admit when they were wrong. Would be a cool community gesture)
• Title: Vainglory: Phoenix, Rise from the Ashes (they’re making a comeback… Also, there’s a large, BA Phoenix at the center for capture instead of a kraken
• Heroes; heroes like Leo and Ishtar that were just stupid busted (and remain so) are deleted or numbers are completely reworked, petal is remade, but overall, the same hero roster is kept and they release lore on heroes that don’t have them once every two weeks
• 5v5 is gone. They focus solely on 3v3. They use the Halloween map, winter map, autumn map, spring map, and summer maps. They add some other holiday decor and effects to the maps when appropriate (xmas, easter, valentines, etc). Knowing that LoL is coming to mobile, Vainglory gets back to its roots and offers a fun but competitive moba experience that doesn’t necessarily have to directly compete with LoL (which, imo, will dominate the mobile MOBA 5v5 market)
• UI and guild systems receive revamps. Guilds are able to initiate schedule wars for boosted xp and reward gains, also, see @Xhaos’s ideas. The UI is somewhat customizable, stealing an idea from this site, but new, seasonal skins for heroes or map themes may be chosen as your main screen background with a default option always available.

TLDR: Vainglory II is 3v3 only, with long reported bugs cleaned up, certain heroes deleted/reworked, and a more interactive UI

[VaKTaBi]

Well, it would be great but, with the Wild Rift coming… I’m not sure how much success would it have, specially after SEMC lost the confidence we gave them.

[cha0z]

Vainglory 5vs5 (2.0) should have been the released 5vs5 while 3vs3 was kept as vainglory 3vs3 (1.0) app and without the changes made for 5vs5, i.e. it should had been on patch 2.8 and improved on top of it with the same direction as in the past.

That way 3vs3 was going to still be a thing + most likely survive the release of lol wr as it’s unique. While 5vs5 was going to have the chance to be a better MOBA with massive changes in every possible way (like skills and whatnot, without considering 3vs3 and SEMC did consider it heavily when it was the critical months) + release heroes optimised for 5vs5 or even go with: the same hero in both games, but with unique spin off it for each.

Instead they did what they did and now it’s too late, especially with lol WR coming. Seriously, don’t underestimate how big this is going to get. This is the first serious MOBA coming from the PC to mobile and aiming for the PC experience. VG is close, but failed because of many bad decisions that are discussed more than enough to go over them again.

[TheInterpreter]

Yeah a VG 2 would be great at this point. I don’t think they need to ditch 5v5 or make it a separate game so much as not treat it like an unwanted child. Balance heroes fairly compared to others and compared on FULL POTENTIAL not how players feel that week. Agree with most of the other ideas.

Hell if they just took the existing game and fixed it properly, didn’t admit to anything, just did the right thing like they’re slowly doing now, and slapped a new name on it like you said, people wouldn’t even want an apology, would just be happy with a better game and a new thing to rally around and support.

Edit: treat 3v3 as an unwanted child*

[Lebatron]

Perhaps - I just know quite a large player pool has become frustrated with SEMC. It doesn’t make it go away, but an apology coupled with a new release is a strong PR move and shows “hey - we DO care about the community, like we once did.”

The reason I say ditch 5v5, @VaKTaBi, is so that they’re not in direct competition with WR. WR is where folks will go to play a pure 5v5 mobile MOBA, with a company with a strong reupation and an abundance of resources (ML, AoV, and VG 5v5 are ALL about to die when that comes out). VG already had a strong and relatively unique MOBA niche with 3v3. It’s a nice alternative for folks who may want breaks from LoL, WR and other 5v5 MOBAs to play a touch controlled 3v3 MOBA.

[VaKTaBi]

Yeah, I completely agree with the 5v5 part, I never said anything about it XD.

[Orikson]

While I haven’t played Vainglory in ages, I still like it somewhat. So, here’s my thoughts as an add on to your vision of a theoretical “Vainglory 2.”

Name of the Game

To me, I feel like they should ditch the “Vainglory” name. Not because it isn’t good or distinct.
Rather, it is because of the irony the title has now with the literal definition of the word.
“Vainglory” as a word means this: “excessive pride in oneself or one’s achievements; excessive vanity.”
While lacking in evidence, we all would have heard of how the upper echelons of Super Evil Megacorp were one of the reasons for Vainglory’s current state and decline.

Maybe a title that reflects the world that was told through the (now defunct for the most part) lore and world-building stories that don’t focus on specific characters.
Say something like “Shattered Halcyon,” which can have the double meaning of ‘a time a place that was idyllically happy and peaceful shattered by conflict’ and referring to the original map, the Halcyon Fold.

I will admit that my naming conventions tend to go down rather obscure paths, as you can probably see in some of my Hero Ideas in the past, lol.
A new name does not mean that some aspects of the older title would be forgotten.
I would prefer entirely new assets with some older ones overhauled for the new game.
Use this chance to get rid of a lot of fat that the original title gained across its lifespan (of a rise, decline, and stagnation).

Characters - Fun and Frustration?

Ah, heroes (or champions, whatever you like to call them as). Some are loved, some are hated, some don’t even get time to be anything more than a passing mention.
They are the quintessential ‘hooks’ of any MOBA, based on their looks, character (through spoken lines, voice, etc.), numbers, and cosmetics.

The current game (let’s call it VG1 for the purpose of this discussion) has some good ones that tick almost all the boxes. None can be said to have been graced by the ‘numbers’ that put them in a healthy spot though, kek.

For this segment, I want to look at characters from a ‘gameplay’ sense, though do keep not that this does not make any of the other ‘hooks’ any less important.

A design pattern we can see in Vainglory from the early stages of its life was that three pillars of strength (in gameplay, referring to a character’s skill set) became the selling points for players to play them.
These are:

1. Team wide crowd control that is highly impactful and difficult to block.
2. Mobility, specifically ones that can reliably cross terrain, fast and not too telegraphed.
3. Range. Usually applied with high damage, mobility, supportive and crowd control effects. This category also applies to Area of Effect, as I consider them a part of the range statistics.

Later designs of characters in Vainglory have either two or all three pillars incorporated into their ability sets, often with very favorable numbers.
Even before this era of jack-of-all-trades powerhouses, I think Vainglory’s character design leaned too far into one or more of the three pillars.
There was not much of a drawback to a character having one good pillar if any at all.

Take the likes of Adagio, Petal, and SAW. There were extremely dominant back in Vainglory’s first year because they had a high range coupled with high damage. They don’t have the other two pillars, but their numbers were so good, it didn’t matter.

Then have a look at Phinn and Skye (whose design to me was the signal the arrival of an era of design shift).
Phinn came with multiple abilities that play into Pillars 1 and 3. Team wide crowd control with decent range and speed of application.
Skye came with a simple Pillar 2, yet very impactful mobility thanks to her Heroic Perk and B ability. It helped that she had elements of Pillar 1 and 3 that were not prominent in her kit by themselves, but when paired with a specific item (cough Frostburn pre-nerf cough), those pillars became somewhat prominent.

Now we look at the new era of hero design, starting particularly with Leo and Miho. They both have all three pillars in their kits in some shape or form with good numbers and easy application. No need to further explain this part, aside from maybe items enhancing the already strong kits I guess.

These all gradually boils down to being extremely divisive opinions. One prominent opinion I think most people could share is this: The characters are fun to play as, but frustrating to play against.

For a VG2 to succeed, the character’s design from the kit and gameplay perspective need to construct similar but healthier pillars of design, something akin to an image of balance I suppose.
There must be a risk to reward ratio that makes it fun and a decent challenge for players to play as or against any and all characters.

Now, you might notice that I didn’t mention ‘numbers,’ which defines how strong somethings are. The reason for this is simple, they are easily changed from time to time to shake things up.
To me, a hero should be designed with considerations on how impactful it is and not overloaded with things that make them self-sufficient. A good design would enable slight numbers adjustments have them still within the realm of viability but not so fickle as too immediately crumble upon having their numbers adjusted.

Oh dear, the above section became quite a mouthful, lol.
To summarise though, a VG2 needs to have better hero designs that can give clear risk and reward, be it for an easy or difficult hero.
Qualities in their visual appeal and aesthetics also need to be unique enough to get them some dedicated fans.

Modes - Variety is the Spice of Life… Unless in Excess.

Vainglory has how many modes by now? 10 or so with a few in rotations?
While I did enjoy the Brawl modes prior to leaving, I can’t help but feel the number of game modes was too many given the player base was steadily declining.

For a VG2, I think the best course of action is to backtrack to the roots of VG1 - which is 3 vs. 3 only but with a couple of the more popular (non-Talent influenced) game modes.
This backtrack is for a number of reasons, the primary being that “League of Legends: Wild Rift” is on the horizon (at the time of writing this post) and will most certainly capture the attention of MOBA fans. If not through gameplay, then through the name and the Champions the League of Legends universe has.

Something as simple as a line-up of the Standard ‘ranked and non-ranked’ 3 vs. 3 game mode, and the shorter Blitz mode.
This in a way mirrors PC League of Legends game offerings when it comes to its MOBA part - Standard ‘ranked and non-ranked’ 5 vs. 5 game mode on its Summoners’ Rift map, and the ever-popular ARAM mode on its own map, Howling Abyss.

VG2 doesn’t necessarily need a new map. Just blocking off sections of the map would do if they wanted to modify the playing field.

In addition to that, seasonal Events that mimic the likes of League’s popular seasonal game modes (in particular U.R.F.) can be done add some wild harmless fun from time to time.

In summary, a VG2 should go for a 3 vs. 3 experience for a myriad of reasons; and have a small core of game modes with a map that can be easily repurposed for Seasonal Events/game modes.

I feel that Vainglory failed to learn from existing high profile MOBAs when it attempted to add more game modes beyond Battle Royale (former name of the now ARAL game mode).
In addition to that, they seemed so hung up on the notion of “delivering true PC MOBA experience onto mobile platforms” that they didn’t adjust the game to fit with the nature of the mobile gaming from the game length, attention, and retention of its players.

To add on to that, they went ham on putting in 5 vs. 5 game mode while neglecting the already established 3 vs. 3 modes, of which had the standard ‘ranked and non-ranked’ modes, ARAL and Blitz prior to 5 vs. 5 coming into the game. To further divide and draw resources away from the 3 vs. 3 modes, they went ‘cross-platform’ with a very poorly optimized release (which I think is still buggy to this day and abandoned maybe. I couldn’t be bothered to check.).

In hindsight, I feel like the company was not confident that the 5 vs. 5 venture would gain traction. If they had the confidence it will (not ‘could’) succeed, they would have gone with a new app for it, which would have been VG2, or VG: 5 vs. 5.
But what is done is done.

The ‘Things’ they Did that is ‘Mobile’… but are ‘The Wrong Focus’…

This is quite simple - the User Interface, and the Monetisation.

A) User Interface
Mobile games have one thing in common when it comes to their U.I. - cluttered, colorful, confusing, and noisy.
There are simply too many things to press, with some often leading to the same things.

Vainglory suffers this (poor) fate, even before the revamp took place. Though it was cleaner with a more subdued color palette.
I’m no expert with U.I. design and such. So I can’t really suggest how to they should improve upon this for Vainglory (and VG2).

Maybe we’ll see how the “League of Legends: Wild Rift” U.I. would be like. From early screenshots, it looks simpler and cleaner.

B) Monetisation
Most mobile games have poor monetisation, often having multiple currencies to confuse the players/users.
Most are designed to ‘milk’ the most money out of their consumers, which is often the sought after whales who fell for the trap.

While Vainglory’s monetisation isn’t as egregious, it is still quite poor given there are multiple currencies in-game, loot boxes, and items that are not at all useful (Talents, hat crafting materials etc.).

To me, Vainglory failed in its monetisation.

RiseChu has given this statement that gives my thoughts on the reasons it failed:
I personally think its the other way around. Back when they first started, they gave away so much content such as LE skins or skin cards and that was the first mistake. Not only did they spoil the community with being able to not spend a dime on high quality skins, but when SEMC decided to push monetization around 3.0, then the community was triggered about it.

Pretty much they screwed themselves in the early run. But thats my opinion.

For this section, I have a simple suggestion. Follow what League of Legends does with its monetisation when it comes to skins. Get rid of all the Talents and any excess things like Hats.

I can’t fathom and feel frustrated that SEMC boasted they are the ‘leader’ when it comes to mobile MOBAs, but fall prey to the obnoxious monetisation models present in mobile games. The decisions they made from the get-go and later on also baffles me. Even without business knowledge, the choices of monetisation comes across as anti-consumer and inefficient.

The E-sport Dream…

Ugh… I think I’ll make this short.
Simply put, someone or some people at SEMC seemed to have that dream that Vainglory would become a popular mobile e-sports game, just like how League of Legends and DoTA2 have become giants in the PC MOBA e-sports and still are today.

To me, they took too many risks and sacrificed a lot of their organic growth. By taking the reigns of what could have been made through community growth around the game, they spearheaded a train of excitement and promises. Used a lot of money to get deals and franchising with big-name e-sports organizations… Put up a front of sustainability… So many things to make that e-sports dream a reality (even if it was shortlived).

Now, look at Vainglory’s e-sports scene. Where is it? Faded and rusted, with no one wanting to touch it with a ten-mile pole…
The community doesn’t even speak of it anymore, and no one wants to spearhead a new train for SEMC themselves have shown that such a train leads to nowhere…
Only derailing at that important junction in the game’s life… broken and lying in a ditch on its side, bearing the markings of 3 vs. 3 on its rolling stock… and an iron edge stuck at the points, the cause of the derailment… bearing the faded markings… of 5 vs. 5…

Jokes and metaphors aside, I think a VG2 should never ever have an e-sport scene propped up and funded the way the Vainglory e-sport scene was.
It should be more natural, formed by the community for the community.
Less we forget how bad the truth of the e-sport scene for Vainglory and SEMC’s image overall…

Anyway, that’s enough rambling for today. Hope you all didn’t die on the way down!

[Sambodopaksam]

Well for me, 5v5 is one of the reason i play VG. I came from pc moba, look for mobile moba because dont have time to sit on pc for too long anymore. Vg is the closest thing to pc moba i was expecting. Its good idea though to make VG2. Like restart. But the main thing for me is to get the hype it needs to thrive cos semc had failed with vg and this affect the whole thing, even in how they made new heroes