What do "You" Think of the Current State of Heroes?

I agree he was “way too loaded”. I disagree about removing the Rose Trail while keeping the B slow suggestion. The range 12 slow was the biggest issue with him working well into every hero. His B did not fit into the general rule “melee heroes have to engage to CC unless it’s their Ult”. This rule is seen in Glaive, Rona, Ozo, Krul, and Koshka. The rose trail was only useful as a chase whereas the slow on his B served as both a chase and escape mechanism. The range combined with the escape from his B meant he could always take fights with an advantage.

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Interesting. I never thought of that before.

I can see your point on it.

Guess BF is just a headache to get right eh?

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tbh my all opinions transition only to 5vs5 as currently I don’t play 3vs3 (the balance is meh) and don’t play BR/blitz - no talents for me + I play atleast 1/3 of my games with top 100 players, the other 2/3rds are with top 300 players, i.e. I really meet people that can play some heroes (or all the heroes for a matter of fact) to frustration level of good.

Tho they could just reduce the slow to a not that impactful value/duration as it was quite strong.

I’m tired of Fortress having a broken kit that always alternates between being op or trash. Plus powercreep on new heroes doesn’t help at all.
Rework him already, make him a straight jungler, get rid of that silly and old idea of making him a roamer.

But that B needs to land and it’s not one of the easiest skillshots to land. Nobody complained when Skye could beat anyone based on skills. Exactly because if you lose she played better. Why is that a problem when it’s someone else? Even then seriously I don’t remember people complaining about BF until he got his kit stripped. It makes no sense to say how broken it was now when he wasn’t even broken back then and people didn’t complain about it.

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I never played her as captain since last patch… ever since she got her buff for 2nd missle damage. I have been using her as cp cannon mage with every chance I get.

I’m not sure a melee hero needs a 3rd low cooldown escape mechanism. Even with a 20% slow, he would be able to walk away from any melee vs melee fight that didn’t go well.

I’ve posted about BF on the old forums stating why his kit was overloaded and that the core problem has always been his B slow and the total number of mobility impacting abilities. He was near permanent meta until the B slow was removed. He originally had 5 mobility impacting options if you count the two charges on his Ult individually. He is now down to 3 mobility impacting options. I think giving him a chase mechanism back would be ok, but IIRC Rose Trail was partially removed because it was resource heavy for older devices. I wouldn’t have a problem with him getting that back as it only allows chase. But, giving a melee hero 3 escape mechanisms and the ability to counter pretty much any other hero isn’t healthy. Is there anything I posted that doesn’t ring true?

The assasin class is still pretty much dead, and the only assassin who does her job is permabanned. Skye got a buff for some reason and boots sre better but the mm problems are still around. Will probsbly take a while to recover if more poeple come back

Almost permanent meta? What?? He was nowhere near that. Strongest he’s been since release was when people found out that AS actually works and started abusing it and people have bad memories from that as it was relatively recent.

When people compare kits they’re always all about quantity. If a hero has an ability with 1% slow, 1% damage boost, 1% lifesteal, giving 1% damage boost on next auto attack is it overloaded? You compare only numbers of things. So let’s say BF has slow back. That’s his A, his B and 2 ults. Reza has “3” escapes following that logic. Yet he’s still harder to catch. You can’t compare just by quantity without actual in-game effects. That’s the same with KDA and it’s relation to rotations, killing key targets, protecting the right place and split pushing. You can’t know those things based on stats yet they’re much more realistically impacting than KDA. But people would still judge based solely on KDA.

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I agree both quality and quantity matters. There are a lot of considerations when looking at movement impacting abilities. I agree with the Devs choice to remove the slow from the B.

TLDR:

[spoiler]BF has two omnidirectional dodges (Ult x2) that break targeted abilities and Reza has 3 but only his Ult is a true dodge. On Point was a very low cooldown, range 9 slow something Reza doesn’t have. This slow allowed him to kite any melee hero while trading with ranged heroes. Feint is a targeted gap closer which has less value than non-targeted like Reza’s dashes.

As for meta, BF SM/BP was meta for a very long time. His CP path was also meta. For most of the 2.X cycle, he was a great solo queue hero because he could fill either WP/CP need and his amount of movement meant you could last long enough to build stacks.

We often talk about high skill vs low skill heroes. BF definitely takes skill to play with his dodge, poke, and the number of choices his abilities give him. The problem wasn’t “high cap hero winning due high skill player”. It was BF simply had more tools in his toolbox than other heroes. Without the slow on his B, this is no longer the case. People are upset because SEMC hasn’t prioritized balancing him and because they no longer can simply outgun opponents.[/spoiler]

Heroes are overall really balanced right now, I would argue there are not any S tier picks that really overshadow the meta, and we have one of the largest pools of relevant A/B tier picks.

Obviously their are poor picks, petal for example. But on the whole heroes feel like they are in a good place.

PS: Lance is great in 5v5.

Really? I highly doubt it since it could have had many solutions to make it work.

They removed it because he had too much in his kit. (Malene says Hi)

On the 5v5 map, with the amount of environmental effects they have, I don’t believe it.

The butterflies are similar to the rosetrail effects but I dont see them lagging anything

Thats why the draft in worlds were exactly the same time and time again? Kinetic and Silvernail overshadow the other bot laners by a lot. Lorelai is just busted AF, Yates the same.
Pros complaining about the meta, about the unbalance of the patch and you say its balanced, lol.
What happens, roams doesnt have enough impact yet? Despite 7 out the 8 first picks in ranked are roams? Its not enough? We may just need to buff Kinetic a little bit more, so she can truly obliterate everything. Of course having in the competition the same drafts time and time again doesnt prove any unbalance.
All the roams buff werent necessary, in fact they nerfed a nerd. Kinetic needed a nerd too. The meta is extremely unbalanced at the highest elo.

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Meta and balance are not the same thing. The balance currently is pretty solid with a good range of viable heroes, and hero types.

The meta is not good and encourages unhealthy gameplay and lopsided side lane meta.

Magnus’ a and b hitbox still feels a bit off. Flicker’s damage is a surprise but I think it is manageable. I’m 8 for 8 with BF this patch so that’s nice.

You said no hero overshadows the other ones, which is just false. Kinetic and Silvernail overshadows every other bot laner. There are clearly the strong Hero and the weak ones. When 10 straight draft modes if the highest elo are the exact same, the game its not balanced.

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Personally, I wouldn’t call a hero viable if those meta heros just clean the floor with you, but ok. For me this is one of the most unbalanced patch I’ve ever seen

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Reza has 3 non-targeted dashes, speed boost, higher movement speed, easily walljumps with any ability and has Celeste range on his poke. No melee hero is catching him ever. He also has higher damage output (not compared to WP BF but he has no AoE and deals damage much harder than Reza). He kills all squishies and kites melees yet he’s not broken just because he has those things.

Uh yeah SM BP was meta on BF. But BF himself wasn’t constant meta lol. He was viable for a long time but not really meta. CP again viable not meta. He was the last one to be broken though and people as I said before have really bad memories from that time.

Saying I (and others that agree with me) am only salty and complaining because I was “outgunning” opponents can go both ways. I can say that everyone that doesn’t want his kit to be back just couldn’t win against BF back then. Back in 3v3 I literally played any hero in jungle, I’m not meta slave. I don’t care for meta. But they took away his identity.

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There are so many strong as f new heroes that even totally unleashed old BF will not be pick/ban every game. Overloaded kits? Look no further than the new heroes. Also overloaded kit is more how the skills synergy one with another and not that much about count as (and u say it) - the slow can be 1% for 0.1s for example.

Also arguing that BF had overloaded kit when we have malene… but lets look at older hero: grace

  1. gap closer
  2. stun
  3. passive dmg reduction with A, scaling via CP
  4. temporary strong dmg reduction when using A
  5. temporary strong dmg reduction on allies when using A
  6. heal
  7. temp dmg reduction shield on her when casting C
  8. temp dmg reduction on target of the heal
  9. slow on basic AA scaling with CP
  10. stronger second AA

Not bad, yeah? Ofc she can and is balanced. Same as BF was for many patches.

Also as you said, BF was not OP for most vainglory history after his release. Dunno why one would think the opposite. Even when he was strong, he was not in every game or ban every game at all. Only one patch I remember him more picked and even then it was not in every game tho OP.

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