Things I Realized Today: Grumpjaw is Better As A Capt. Always


#1

It dawned on me today that you should pretty much only play grump as capt. and here’s why:

He has a single target ult that captures the opponent and does moderate dmg at best but drags them away from the fight and into bad spots.
He has an aoe A that can slow down a team at the cost of hurling yourself into one, necessitating him being more defensive anyway.
His perk makes him a fort already; adding capt items would only increase his staying power, allowing him to provide almost all the support your team needs item wise with no issue.

As for why not wp or cp, because you always will be at a disadvantage in team fights due to his kit, and defense benefits it more, kinda like how Inara, with her lack of team ganking potential but team utility, benefits more as a captain while being a hero suited for the jungle, Grumpjaw relies on his team in teamfights and exells as a suppport in light of his capabilities.


#2

That’s why GJ is build as utility hero instead of WP or CP, although those paths are also viable and strong, specially WP, allowing you to harass the enemy bot laner easily.

Edit: GJ can excel too if build CP or WP, captain is only better in certain circumstances.


#3

Yeah he can excel but not in team fights if he gets focused. I feel like you should almost always hybrid some capt potential into him, as late game he can’t contribute to teamfights as well.


#4

GJ is a 1v1 bully hero, not a teamfights hero, however, he still good in teamfights due to his surviavility.


#5

Agreed but that doesn’t make his abilities more effective in teamfights nor does it help him to a certain degree if he’s focused.


#6

There is no hero able to survive more than GJ if focused by a whole team.


#7

Not exactly. He will get his stacks chewed through and lose the defense buff where a joule, lance, or grace wouldn’t. Regardless, he can’t do much in a teamfight, making his survivability moot, which is why he should capt.


#8

He can only loose one stack per second, and attacking makes you recover the stacks. He is an off meta captain, he works well with utility items, but not as captain. Not all is about damage, you can’t protect well your teammates as a captain would do.


#9

Dmg on gj would be when you counter, otherwise I agree utility would be more useful generally


#10

He won’t be attacking every second he is hit if he’s in a teamfight, not to mention the about 1-3 seconds of free dmg if you use your A or C in a teamfight. He can’t maintain his stacks unless it’s 1-2 enemies. And true he’s not as good at protecting teamates, but he is good at disruption and tanking.


#12

Damage from multiple sources doesn’t allow him to sit there and continually take it, nor does cc, wind up times on animations for abilities, general positioning and enemy kiting, etc. Every hero does not dash into the enemy team and sit there for 1 to 2 seconds like he does with his A, nor do similarly with his C. Even Reza as a similar example, has his dashes to get out, and gains fortified health on C. The amount of enemies attacking him changes how much damage he can take, where he will be positioning himself. I mean captain, not utility. There’s little point in giving him dmg items when you can load him with all capt items, since late game his dmg potential is minimized. He’s an early-mid game hero.


#13

GJ’s perk also makes it so he doesn’t need to build defense though. I don’t think he should go without, but he doesn’t need a full captain build to get the tankiness.

On the other hand, he wins damage races with many other heroes, partly because his perk blunts their attacks. Damage items make sense for him because in the parts of the game where he can often catch enemies alone, they help him to overpower them.

Also, nothing about him scales with captain items. His defense scales with attack speed. His captain-y abilities have no scaling on them (except for damage). He has a bit more utility if he builds cooldown reduction, but his slow and swallowing are the same no matter what he’s built. Because of the diminishing returns on armor and shield, after his first defense item he probably gains more survivability by keeping his perk stacked up.

His perk also doesn’t quite work with the way captains tank. He get weaker the longer he’s in combat, but a captain often needs to be a physical barrier between their team and the enemy, and that often means the captain is taking little harassing hits for a long time before the team really engages. GJ need definite beginnings and ends to the fight to maximize use of his perk.

None of that is saying that he can’t be a good captain, but his kit doesn’t really reward building defense/utility items the way most captain kits do. He can provide all the utility while also building 2-3 damage items. His best use case is probably striking from ambush, fightinwhile his perk lasts, and then retreating (possibly bringing a vulnerable enemy with him), so he’s probably better in a jungler role.

Inara is an interesting comparison, because they are both “utility” junglers instead of “damage” junglers. They both do fair damage, but don’t get as much out of 4-damage-item builds as most other heroes do. They both have great utility which does not depend on certain items to scale. I play a lot of Inara, have a consistently high win rate for her, and have played her as a captain numerous times, but I’d still definitely prefer her as a jungler.

The thing with Inara, is that her survivability comes from movement, and control of the enemy’s movement, so it doesn’t help her to have more defense than she needs to survive 2 seconds of focus — if she lingers too long she’s dead anyway. I’ve tried taking her full-utility, and it really doesn’t help; :vgitem_fountainofrenewal: and :vgitem_crucible: are enough utility for her, and building :vgitem_halcyonchargers:, :vgitem_stormcrown: and :vgitem_spellsword: will give her a quick cooldown on her abilities, but she’ll probably help her team most if she doesn’t ignore damage. And in all cases, it’s better to have someone else playing the captain; jungler Inara brings 95% of captain Inara’s utility.

The reason Inara and Grumpjaw are junglers is that you generally don’t want the enemy team to see them until they strike. They can’t be as effective hanging out in center lane as more traditional captains are. Of the two, GJ works better as a captain (when I captain with Inara it’s usually because I picked early and then no one filled in captain, and I usually build my normal jungling build but subbing :vgitem_fountainofrenewal: for :vgitem_slumberinghusk:). I think in most cases they work better building more utility/defense than typical damage-dealers, but still building 3 damage items.

(I definitely know Inara better than. GJ though. Inara is my boo.)


#15

This sort of post – in which someone picks apart someone else’s post sentence by sentence (or phrase by phrase) makes it very difficult for anyone attempting to read it. It’s exactly like interrupting someone while they’re speaking. Please assemble your thoughts into a coherent paragraph or two so that they’re easier to follow. It also tends to make your argument more forceful and convincing instead of appearing like petty nitpicking.

I’ve pointed this out to other folks elsewhere, fyi. It’s really not an effective way of replying.


#16

Then how people could understand what I’m referring to? I will try.


#17

That’s all part of making a coherent argument. :wink:


#19

I know you said not to reply cuz your comments are gonna get deleted but in this case when told to change your structure of a post for reasons and not them actually being offensive or something that must be taken down, leave them up and just change how you reply to futures comments to not be that structure anymore. You’ve already deleted some comments and it’s left holes in the debate that make it hard to understand what’s going on, like @Guest_78 in that Caine thread.

I like following debates and I’m sure others here doing so would like to understand them fully if they read through them and when someone’s comments in that debate get deleted while others have already replied to it it makes it hard to follow


#20

Agreed. Perhaps I mat be misinterpreting @hazeleyes here, but I don’t believe the request was to delete your comments… Nor even edit them. Rather to use more caution in future posts to avoid such rhetoric.


#21

They were already annoying to read, which I expect them no more once it’s fully deleted (reason 1), didn’t considered them important for the thread in general so not much was lost (reason 2), there is no point in writing things to be flagged as flagged comments aren’t read and writing something that isn’t gonna be read it’s a waste of time and space (reason 3). I considered those 3 reasons to overshadow the little annoyance it could provoke by deleting them, so I did it, but maybe I judge wrongly.


#22

The request was not to delete the comments, you didn’t misunderstood


#23

Is all good, just sort of using you as an example as I was reading that thread then some of the comments that were replied to you didn’t lead to a comment from you at some point and it was strange to read. Better example would’ve been that classification of heroes thread were the first post is deleted but discussion continues