The issue with VGs jungle is that there isnt a clear rotation like in league, its feels unatural to rotate from bot lane to top while clearing jungle. U could reverse the jungle and probably Junglers might be actually Jungle. Reversing the jungle could probably fix the issue of top lane ganking.
Care to explain in detail? This is unclear to me.
Clearing from Bot is wierd while other games like league use their junglers from top to bot clear, but in VG u invade an opponents jungle instead if u wanted to clear from top to bot. But semc definitly needs to refine jungle so the clear doesnt make laners junglers.
Reversing the the jungle could possibly fix this and make the lane match ups(Bot vs Bot and Top vs Top) and reducing the ambient gold and exp to like 60% is fine with a jungle reverse.
Edit: Also top to bot clears enable u to gank top striaght away if you needed. And the clearing rotations will feel more fluid.
But if you alter the game too much players have to readapt.
2 Likes
I can say that this is a known and recognised issue but fixing it is much much harder than you would think.
Its also worth noting that its a direct result of fixing another issue - the hard lane snowball issue. So fixes have to not restore that.
We have tried quite a few variations of fixes for this in PBE (not going to tell you what sorry) for quite a few patches. Small steps have been made towards it, more are coming in the next and future patches.
So broadly yes there is an issue here, SEMC is aware of it and is actively trying to resolve it. Without breaking things.
8 Likes
The problem is I donât see how small things can fix that. Itâs not 1 problem, itâs multiple. You got wrong lane matchups because of mirroring, jungle is too important even if you arenât jungler (and especially), one jungle is more important than the other. I donât see how it can be fixed with changing spawn times and such. We need major changes but from my experience SEMC seem to be afraid of changes.
2 Likes
To me it seems simple - nerf the red buff, forcing lanes to center around global objectives instead of buffs. In Vainglory this could work if the duo lane was the one next to Ghostwing because you can snowball easily with an early Ghostwing capture. Maybe youâve tested this and it doesnât work for whatever reason?
thank you for putting a name to it. This exact issue is why itâs so hard to balance the map.
I am also aware of how difficult it is. My brain gets fried just thinking about it. it ainât so simple as people think.
1 Like
Lane match ups arenât an issue they are a feature - they really arenât the problem because they are mirrored on both sides - plus given the strength of pulseweave at the moment with a team doing decent rotations its not even clear that bot has a huge advantage over top.
The fundamental problem is that hyperfarming or funnelling resources to a few heroes makes sense and that encourages it being the case that effective play for your 2-3 main carries is to take all the farm they can and for the rest to focus utility and cheap impact builds.
We have trialled several very major âfixesâ for this in PBE - as is the case most of those have been abandoned either due to complexity (for example going back to the old days of contracts for ambient gold/exp is unlikely because of the increased complexity that involves) or because they had deeply unwanted side effects.
Small inching solutions seem more promising as a way of fixing this without introducing another whole raft of issues.
The red buff is largely inconsequential for the jungle issue at the moment.
The basic aim at pro play level right now is to get a dominant advantage in the jungle. This is done basically by contesting the blue buffs as they spawn usually as a 4-5 man group. This is impactful because winning that fight usually means you can both clear that whole side of the jungle and potentially contest and win the other blue buff as well.
After you do that once or twice what you then try and do is off set the spawn time of the enemy blue buff so that you can safely capture the first and then rotate with the buff to the second. This gives you a significant gold and experience lead (with bot and jungle clearing bot lane and rotating through bot jungle clearing that), mid and roam holding mid, and top holding top until its buff contest time again. You then convert that advantage into either ghostwing or bot turret, followed by mid turret. You then use that map safety advantage into dominating their red buff and gold as well and complete the snowball.
This is different from the other jungle problem which is that junglers rarely get to last hit in the jungle - its gold and exp inefficient if they do so. Attempts to fix that for example by equalising spawn timers have fed into this new jungle problem.
I think to fix this you need to make leaving lane more costly. I think this requires some of several options.
- Put more gold/exp into lane minions.
- Make solo lane minions push turrets harder.
- Increase the frequency/amount of lane waves.
- Globally decrease movement speed.
- Increase exclusivity of jungle camps.
- Huge buff to the importance of objectives.
- Buff to the value of kills over farm.
The problem is each of those has some nasty unintended consequences.
5 Likes
Every hero buying an invisible hero passive? Laner, jungler, captain? Give jungler and captain ambient gold. Give laners bonus gold for lane minions. Lower lane gold for junglers increase their gold for jungle minions etc.
Like the old contract but as a role passive
1 Like
Precisely this. Ambient gold means that the jungler funnels all the gold to 2 members of the team usually 2 heavy damage dealers and thatâs a thing that has been carried away from 3v3. The jungle offers multiple waves of lane minions worth of gold and xp and because the jungle spawns so quickly carries literally ignore their lanes, they just pass by clear a wave or 2 and then spend most of their time getting jungle ambient. If getting rid of ambient gold isnât an option for the semc, the only fix for this would be lowering how much jungle camps offer ambient gold and xp, increase the gold bounty of lane minions and revert to the old jungle camps timers.
Mirrored lanes might be considered a âfeatureâ but that doesnât mean itâs good. I am sure majority of the players dislike it. Mid is the only lane matching their enemy counterpart and itâs the best balanced lane wouldnât you agree?
About PBE, I donât know whatâs being tried and tested and planned but the fact is 5v5 is here for more than half a year and literally nothing is changed. Yes meta is evolving but the same core problems remain. So those âlittleâ changed donât seem to have much of an impact.
I know it seems like longer, but 5v5 was released to Golden Ticket holders with update 2.12 at the end of January 2018 and to everyone with update 3.0 in mid February. So actually, 5v5 is only 6 months old.
I meant half a year sorry. Because worlds is during winter or a bit before it. Just made a mistake when typing.
2 Likes
Rip to the old ambient ideaâŚ
The only problem i have is that the ambient change to the fold (long time ago) was to simplify the concept. As it was a 3v3 mode.
5v5 is obviously more complex and more âmoba-ishâ for a lack of a better word. I would expect that a complex idea would work but ig not due to you saying its already been tested.
I wish they would expand the item tree instead of pumping out joystick friendly heros every patch 
