I suggested that it should cost 600 gold and only give stats that benefit captains like hp, cooldown reduction. It wouldn’t be worth getting this item for anyone besides captains.
Those stats are universally good. You could go jungle Cath, start ironguard and go for SGB after a clear.
Personally I would like to see Jungle mobs be tougher and take % reduced damage from ranged characters as a starting point but hey that’s just me.
Had to fight a double captain kensei just now. It made me want to vomit…
He went from 10% hp to 60% in a few hits…
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The jungle ambient gold needs to go down from 85% to 60% just like in the lane. The experience split for two people needs to go down from 85%/75% to 65%/55%. The wave needs to respawn a couple seconds faster.
and make lane minions worth more gold, people literally let an entire wave crash on their tower to share ambient. Ambient of red jungle is 260 gold, thats like 2 and half waves so lowering jungle ambient and increasing lane gold could work
Something needs to change for sure. Nowdays the games are decided in the jungle only and as said from the pros - laner should not stay in his lane at any phase of the game.
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Yeah its best to fight enemies and steal their jungle and then pass by lane to instantly wipe a load of minions and push the wave towards your enemy and move on…
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They really need to expand their item roster and add back/revert the ancient ambient changes they did a LONG time ago.
More items for every path in general.
i would gladly take a “two patches a new hero” type of wait for new items.
sorry for my rant
Imo there isn’t really much we can with ambient gold without changing the entirety of the game. 7/8 of the playerbase doesn’t even know how to utilize ambient gold, or share XP. I feel the problem is that the red jungle has more gold than the crystal jungle and the same XP as well. You’d think that the mid laner who needs level more than money would be having a jungle rich in XP but nope. That’s why Samuel (a mid laner who needs money rather than XP) is always doing so well despite being nerfed every other patch.
My solution is to create an objective that spawns in lane, perhaps Gold Toad, in the 4 min mark. This will make laners who know how to trade well and control the lane do better than those who don’t. Now you may be saying “well this supports the duo bot lane.” Well it doesn’t because if you wanna win you as a jungler should try to help the top side collapse on the enemy jungler and bot laner. The Toad should just give a large amount of gold let’s say 250 for last hit and 75 for those nearby and 0 globally. And ofc no XP. This may even result in a bot lane v bot lane instead of top lane v bot lane. If you have noticed in League, the map is the same as ours but its still bot v bot and top v top. When late game arrives the bot that doesn’t have the red buff rotates to top and shoves lane.
But I mean we can also drastically decrease the early game power of WP carries and add a WP ratio to ranged heroes on their AA’s so it becomes worth taking a whole wave of CS rather than taking ambient on the healing treant with your jungler. Melees can never carry a match, they can do well but it doesn’t mean they can carry.
I wish SEMC kept the true VG formula from 3v3 and build on top of it, i.e.
-all 3 carries fight for the lane and CS
-jungler decides if he will stay in his jungle, invade or pressure one of the 3 lanes
-support decides the lane to help/pressure or if he will rotate/invade with the jungler
Right now it’s as you, all of us and the pros describe it - jungle, wave clear while passing by and again in the jungle. No real laning phase. In 3vs3 we had a unique formula with unique key decisions where to be, in 5vs5 there are no such key decisions, it’s only one way to do the things.
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I don’t even like 5v5 jungling…
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The issue with VGs jungle is that there isnt a clear rotation like in league, its feels unatural to rotate from bot lane to top while clearing jungle. U could reverse the jungle and probably Junglers might be actually Jungle. Reversing the jungle could probably fix the issue of top lane ganking.
Care to explain in detail? This is unclear to me.
Clearing from Bot is wierd while other games like league use their junglers from top to bot clear, but in VG u invade an opponents jungle instead if u wanted to clear from top to bot. But semc definitly needs to refine jungle so the clear doesnt make laners junglers.
Reversing the the jungle could possibly fix this and make the lane match ups(Bot vs Bot and Top vs Top) and reducing the ambient gold and exp to like 60% is fine with a jungle reverse.
Edit: Also top to bot clears enable u to gank top striaght away if you needed. And the clearing rotations will feel more fluid.
But if you alter the game too much players have to readapt.
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I can say that this is a known and recognised issue but fixing it is much much harder than you would think.
Its also worth noting that its a direct result of fixing another issue - the hard lane snowball issue. So fixes have to not restore that.
We have tried quite a few variations of fixes for this in PBE (not going to tell you what sorry) for quite a few patches. Small steps have been made towards it, more are coming in the next and future patches.
So broadly yes there is an issue here, SEMC is aware of it and is actively trying to resolve it. Without breaking things.
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The problem is I don’t see how small things can fix that. It’s not 1 problem, it’s multiple. You got wrong lane matchups because of mirroring, jungle is too important even if you aren’t jungler (and especially), one jungle is more important than the other. I don’t see how it can be fixed with changing spawn times and such. We need major changes but from my experience SEMC seem to be afraid of changes.
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To me it seems simple - nerf the red buff, forcing lanes to center around global objectives instead of buffs. In Vainglory this could work if the duo lane was the one next to Ghostwing because you can snowball easily with an early Ghostwing capture. Maybe you’ve tested this and it doesn’t work for whatever reason?
thank you for putting a name to it. This exact issue is why it’s so hard to balance the map.
I am also aware of how difficult it is. My brain gets fried just thinking about it. it ain’t so simple as people think.
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Lane match ups aren’t an issue they are a feature - they really aren’t the problem because they are mirrored on both sides - plus given the strength of pulseweave at the moment with a team doing decent rotations its not even clear that bot has a huge advantage over top.
The fundamental problem is that hyperfarming or funnelling resources to a few heroes makes sense and that encourages it being the case that effective play for your 2-3 main carries is to take all the farm they can and for the rest to focus utility and cheap impact builds.
We have trialled several very major “fixes” for this in PBE - as is the case most of those have been abandoned either due to complexity (for example going back to the old days of contracts for ambient gold/exp is unlikely because of the increased complexity that involves) or because they had deeply unwanted side effects.
Small inching solutions seem more promising as a way of fixing this without introducing another whole raft of issues.
The red buff is largely inconsequential for the jungle issue at the moment.
The basic aim at pro play level right now is to get a dominant advantage in the jungle. This is done basically by contesting the blue buffs as they spawn usually as a 4-5 man group. This is impactful because winning that fight usually means you can both clear that whole side of the jungle and potentially contest and win the other blue buff as well.
After you do that once or twice what you then try and do is off set the spawn time of the enemy blue buff so that you can safely capture the first and then rotate with the buff to the second. This gives you a significant gold and experience lead (with bot and jungle clearing bot lane and rotating through bot jungle clearing that), mid and roam holding mid, and top holding top until its buff contest time again. You then convert that advantage into either ghostwing or bot turret, followed by mid turret. You then use that map safety advantage into dominating their red buff and gold as well and complete the snowball.
This is different from the other jungle problem which is that junglers rarely get to last hit in the jungle - its gold and exp inefficient if they do so. Attempts to fix that for example by equalising spawn timers have fed into this new jungle problem.
I think to fix this you need to make leaving lane more costly. I think this requires some of several options.
- Put more gold/exp into lane minions.
- Make solo lane minions push turrets harder.
- Increase the frequency/amount of lane waves.
- Globally decrease movement speed.
- Increase exclusivity of jungle camps.
- Huge buff to the importance of objectives.
- Buff to the value of kills over farm.
The problem is each of those has some nasty unintended consequences.
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