Roamers/captains in 5v5

This one match doesn’t prove that captains are dead. I used to think like you when 5v5 was out but with more play my experience changed. The enemy team had 2/5 good players being the saw and Celeste. That taka didn’t abuse the fact that you guys didn’t have any extra source of vision and didn’t build a single defense for a guy who is going to be in the thick of teamfights. A captain like churn,ardan, Lance or Catherine would be far more helpful if you are playing against equally skilled players . Grace and adagio are better off going carry/jungler route. I agree with you on one thing, you would have made very little impact that match as a roam because you had a feeding varya and Skye and you were better off going for damage items.

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Vision was not a problem I kept a cam at hand.
I could have also bought a flare loader I see many junglers like koshka go FL first it works great on them.

The point is that traditional captains provide several things.

  1. List item
    Vision
    Protection
    Healing
    Damage amplification for team
    Damage reduction by enemy

If I had build crucible over aegis and had gotten a flareloader I would have been a full blown captain in my Carry Role.

I had the highest heal amount in game. I tanked the most damage in my team together with Rona just like a captain would.

Show me the benefit of a real captain please I don’t see it anywhere. I have a 100% loss rate as captain and a 70% winrate as carry and jungler in 5v5.

Not because I am not a good captain but because my teammates can’t carry to save their lives and I can’t impact the game enough to make a difference.

When I went flicker full captain mode I had the second highest damage in my team at 17k with just an sgb…

CP Grace, CP Lyra, WP Lyra, CP adagio are all superior to captains if you ask me. They provide captain utility as listed above. Without losing the damage needed.

Throw a superscout on a jungler and your team is golden.

Idk why people complain so much about the roamers. From my personal experience with 5v5 I can confirm that these peeps don’t know how to farm correctly. Most of them are still bad at last hitting. Most of them try to out damage Saw at early game. These peeps don’t know that metal jacket and Aegis is also a thing that still exists in 5v5. These peeps are so keen to initiate a team fight even if they are outgunned and outnumbered and than curse the roamer to not fountain them :joy:. They themselves don’t build a reflex block by level 6 but they want their roamer to build both fountain and Crucible by level 6. They expect roamer to be omnipresent like a God etc.
When we, roamers, get paired with stupid carries, who build glass canon but knows nothing about positioning and renders into a dead meat every min and now. Than we are forced to build some damage damage items like aftershock because we can’t win the team fights just only by playing defensively. To win the team fight, we need to delete other team from the fold. If carries do their job correctly we prefer not to go after such items. However, good carries are much more rare than good roamers. And good carries don’t complain much because they know how to avoid ganks, how to position their hero, which builds work against mirror team comps, what is the peak time of their hero etc.

So, kindly stop cursing the roam all the time. If you guys are so good at roaming than please show us how efficiently you can roam than the person you are cursing.

Captain in soloq sucks though, in 3v3 you could solo and make a huge impact but in 5v5 the impact is diminished. However if are you are partying it is an entirely different issue and feels really rewarding. Now about you asking me to show the benefit of a full captain I will try to explain my best .
I usually classify captains as two types-teamfight oriented ones and non teamfight oriented ones. This doesn’t mean that the non TF ones aren’t good it’s just that their kit is more suited for small skirmishes. I will take grace as an example, if you build utility items other than echo it is not going to help her much and change her style where she will suddenly become a teamfight monster and so you are better off going with damage items. You can go full utility as Catherine with nullwave+echo and it amplifies her teamfight potential with 3 silences and damage items don’t synergize with her kit unlike it does for grace or lyra. Take churn as another example, building damage on him is not going to make much of a difference as he already can do a lot of damage however if you go utility with Echo+shiversteel or something like that it helps him maximize his strength which is teamfighting. Lance can go full utility for the same reason , if you go utility with flicker it is most likely useless. No utility item is helping him to amplify his strength of ganking/surprising enemies so building FoR,SS,WT,Crucible if needed and 1-2 damage items might be helpful.

Dude chill. Improver your own play. It is still casual and no need to tilt.

This is true, single target skills captains are weaker now compared to 3vs3. As expected, you have twice the dmg dealers and your impact is a lot lower. Also that nerf of lance ;( wish they give him a little bit of a more health atleast or/and stamina to use his skills more frequently.

As for the AP vs MJ argument, vs WP enemy ranged composition I don’t see /good/ Lyra’s build AP over MJ. :wink:
So the argument that it’s viable only vs certain heroes is only valid if you play just a few specific captains as Lyra is backliner, not frontliner and will be blown asap.

Tho now they nerfed the defence to the point that it’s almost useless and thus we all see super low defence use from the players and even lower numbers of the classical double defence (shield/armor). Now all go 5 dmg items and boots… at most some build husk and that’s all. @Trex97

There is no captain who is only single target based. Every captain had some form of aoe
Cath-aoe silence, Ardan - zoning tool which can stun multiple targets,Grace-aoe stun , adagio-aoe stun, churn-aoe stun, phinn-everything is aoe, lorelai-two stuns possible with A, baptiste-aoe fear, lyra-aoe zone with B

SG is better on grace for the most situations. Team fights rarely are that long to create a lot of stacks to outperform the SG (there is math video from exo in youtube about that). And those stacks will fall when the fight moves and you disengage for short times… if it doesn’t, you will die fast if you stick like that in the frontline. Not to mention all the situations where you help to 1/2 allies instead of big teamfight. Yes, all her skill scales up to 200CP (heal, shielding, dmg from the A and B).

Only takes 5 stacks to outperform SG, it’s not that hard to stack them in a fight; especially skirmishses in the mid game.

6 stacks + if we talk about dmg wise it was like 12-16 secs in the fight to actually output more dmg. Don’t forget you need to compensate the superior dmg from the SG at the seconds that you build stacks. Search and watch the video, it’s short and explains a lot. I would build DE on certain heroes or if I plan to play given hero certain ways, but I rarely would build DE on grace, I would build almost always SG and be more constant with the heal/dmg/shielding. I want better protection for my team when I initialise and the difference in dmg reduction is substantial with DE on 0 stacks and SG. Also the poke dmg in lanes is better, the heal help on laner is better and so on. CW is not bad on grace too, tho I loved it more when it was 60CP haha prefer it in a lot of situations vs echo as I play aggressive with her and hit most of my stuns. Can do more impact in fights with CW compared to the double heal.

Echo is usualaly situational, if we’re snowballing I’ll forgo this and build AS/CW, if were on the back foot double heals of 800-1000 can turn team fights.

I’m undecided about SG, I still see a lot of pro players choosing DE over SG in fact it’s almost standard. But I take your points on board, especially the lost CP whilst ramping up.

Have you tried spellfire on any support? It offers decent CP and guaranteed mortal wounds. I do CW over Echo and use SF CW as added items to Cru For WT cams

Nope her scaling doesn’t work like that. Her heal and damage aren’t capped at 200% the rest is.

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Not tried it, might be a good situational item (Kruls, saws etc). I’ll consider using it in future if my team lacks mortal wounds.

Really want the extra CP for Shiels and heal ratios though.

SF offers 85 CP same as DE before it starts stacking

CW is good as it will provide multiple As and Bs during the fight and maybe even two heals if it’s a long one. Don’t underestimate the damage reduction of her A, especially with a lot of CP. Using that correctly and frequently can protect the team big time. Also for initialise is really great as it will block a lot of the dmg from bursty enemy heroes.

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I agree the DMG reduction is significant esespecially finally in a 5v5 situation.

Also the duration scales with CP, so you actually give the allies and yourself longer shielding. That’s critical at the start of the battle when burst is going on. DE is builded still as everyone are used to it, it was OP in the previous patch and made a lot of sense. Now after the change it’s not that great on grace. :slight_smile:

bonus: btw, the slow from her perk also scales with CP, so if you catch enemy player with an ally, you will slow him a lot more.

Mmmmm I’ll try this out later tonight…


My connection failed me twice so I had 2 disconnect deaths. And a deserter label ugh…

However I was impactful as a captain and Churnwalker is about the only guy who can handle a beating in 5v5. I had several decent allies that kept me alive through attacking enemies. I scored some very nasty kills with pulls etc.

Churnwalker is perfect for 5v5.
Grace and fortress are great too
Lyra is awesome.
Flicker you need to appreciate to appreciate him but he is good.

The rest are mostly crap… Even my main man Ardan whom I have played hundreds of matches with isn’t good in 5v5…

Heroes with multi target skills can and will work. Heroes with singular hits will fail miserably!

A captain should be highly impactful in his kit not in his items.

Also yay for teleport boots. They offer some vital mobility and defense.

Still though the enemy team won without a captain just with some extra vision…

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