From my days of playing RoC DotA 3.7 from 2005-2008.
DO NOT MIRROR MAP
INHERENT TEAMS IN THE GAME
… Now, there are several other items from DotA that made it such a great and balanced MOBA with a high usasge rate for all heroes. For those whou would like more elaboration on this and/or who are new to MOBA, just post that, and I can certainly do so with a PM to you or in this thread.
I believe those two major points above could create a far greater balance for VG without altering or re-shaping it’s identity too much, as VG does have a lot going for it.
DO NOT MIRROR MAP
This immediately gets rid of the “top lane island” problem many of us deal with. It also would create a little more unpredictability with regards to which buff is rushed, and which objective is rushed. It also mixes things up a bit in a game that is going a bit stale. Just the idea of moving right to left, as opposed to always left to right. would be interesting. The “side” of the map you’re own would be completely random from game to game. This would also be cool at the pro level with best of 5 tourneys. The higher seed could get their choice side of the map for round 5, with the first 4 being split 2-2. I am sure stats would come out quickly as to which side people are better on.
1A) THE JUNGLE: There are too many easy access points to the jungle from the lane, and thus to the lane from the jungle. If the jungler wanted to harass the laner back on DotA, they needed to be sure it would work. It took enough time to go out of their way where they would be thrown off the timing of their creep rotations in their jungle. This also made it a lot more risky to invade an enemies jungle as it would be a lot harder to retreat from it. DotA had a middle jungle where the mid junglers could often go at it, and then each side had it’s own relatievely safe jungle to farm.
INHERENT TEAMS IN THE GAME
Perhaps I can phrase this better. DotA was always the Sentinel vs the Scourge. Each team had 12 unique heroes that could NOT be picked by the other team. This made drafts unncessary, and simply communicating with your team in the lobby chat all that was needed as to who would pick what. This also meant the opposing team did NOT know who you were picking until the game started (you could immediately pull up scoreboard screen). This would definitely alter VG a bit, but keep all the heroes in the game. [SIDE NOTE: I was tempted to suggest completely reworking all heroes and giving them more specific roles through their abilities, as I believe, especially with the captains, abilities are muddling roles. Several captains have abilities that would lead one to believing they are an asssassin, jungler, or bruiser… not a support hero.] SEMC would have to pick which heroes belong to which “side” and what they wanted to name each side. I would keep it simple
SUPERS vs EVILS (I’d be fine with Sovereign Soldiers vs Halcyon Hitmen (but Halcyon refers to the 3v3 map) or Light vs Dark lol)
Examples of how I feel this could create some balance and interesting choices for the game (captains):
SUPERS:
Lorelai
Ardan
Yates
Catherine
Lance
Lyra
EVILS:
Phinn
Churnwalker
Flicker
Adagio
Fortress
What I tried to do there is take who I believe the most powerful captains are (Church, Lorelai, Flicker, Ardan, Phinn, and Yates) and split them up between the two sides.
What are folks thoughts on this? It likely would never happen, but I really felt DotA was so balanced, and despite there only be 24 heroes total, the game was always a bit unpredictable and every hero had a viable role (the siege role was never given to this game, nor can it exist with the intense turret shield). You weren’t quite sure who the other team would pick. And it was different game to game depending who you were playing and what side you were on.
Whatever works! I just feel like VG has so much going for it that reminds me of original MOBAS. The pace of play… the emphasis on mechanics… map awareness… teamwork… relative balance (yes, a few broken heroes, but smart drafting and skillful gameplay can make up for it, it’s not likere there a P2W heroes that totally out-match every other hero)… importance of last-hitting… synergy/comp of heroes. It’s just missing a few things that I feel would take it over the edge!
Was thinking it was rebels vs storm queens army. I can’t remember but is gythia for or against the storm queeen?
I don’t think they’d rework their heroes to be stuck to one role/path as they seem to like heroes being utilised differently from game to game. Tho you did say this as a side note and not a main point.
I don’t know if it’s clear in 5v5 , but in 3v3 the right side is the tech side with a big machine or ship , the left side is the magic side with magical spell words near the base .
And there is rebels against the storm queen , but I think this is more a 5v5 thing than 3v3 , it’s probably part of what sugar venom wanted to go deep in but the semc decision stopped it .
I never even realized that! That works too. I think they need that in 5v5. I can be oblivious at times. It took me several games before I asked someone in voice chat “have you ever played on the right side of the map?”. I felt like an idiot, but for me I just assumed there were sides. When I was told it was a mirror map, I realized then why there were a few flaws in the game.
I’d say 3v3 it’s more outsiders vs locales or fight over resources/energy, seeing as the right side is some nations force to get power for the crystal vs those already living or camping here/nearby already for power too.
5v5 if I remember is storm queen property or close to and as you said this is more revels vs her
I’d love the mirroring to be removed as well. If they tilt the map so that the bases lie on the same level (aka like in 3v3) and that it’s not placed diagonally I don’t see how any side would have advantage over the other.
Second idea though I don’t think is needed. It might be unique and good for Dota but I don’t think they should restrict heroes to team in VG. It limits gameplay which is the main problem. But even besides that heroes are too varied to be put under just 2 teams. I mean there’s no just good guys vs bad guys or Team A vs Team B. There’s all kinds of people that don’t necessarily work with others. There’s mages, people in mechs, undead, random monsters of different origins etc. And even those “groups” don’t work like 1 complete team.
I’m not saying it’s impossible to do. It is but it seems like way TOO MUCH work for something that would limit your gameplay.
I totally agree and I like the sides idea and the mirroring removed. And yeah, I also thought of tilting the map so both sides are on same level, the only adjustment/difference every match wil be if you are on the left or right side.
Funny, this happened to me too. Haha! I didn’t know of the mirroring when 5v5 was first released. Good thing, I found it out before I asked anyone same question.
Im not against the idea of a capture the flag game mode, but it doesnt fit in with the current 5v5. The game mode is and has been tested and its now up to balancing to… balance.
Sounds like an older game i used to play bloodline champions.
And my post earrlier was clarifying what exactly was meant by losing the mirror map.
Basically my bot lane is enemy top lane etc. So ur saying have a true right side. If there were no mirror map you start to call lanes by the objective close since bot lane woulsnt always be the same everygame. So ud get wp buff lane. (Seeing as thats not going to always be bot depending if ur the true side or not.) Im just clarifying i got the right idea…
You played Warcraft DotA way back too? It would be similar to RoC’s 3.7 map, so yes. You’re playing on sides. You could describe it with objectives or buffs like that, but we used to just call it top, mid, and bot because it was actually top v top and bot v bot.
Then aren’t we just copying another game? Also, hat’s not a real solution to what VG’s problems are. That’s making a game more complex than need be and getting away from the spirit of the game. VG is well tailored to the more serious MOBA player with it’s 60 fps and 30ms for mechanical gameplay. As suggested earlier, they need to balance heroes and redefine roles better. They’re set up and have the foundation to be a great MOBA. The changes in the dev team over the years seems to be causing problems.
When I made this post, my whole point was to suggest a non mirrored map with a slightly harder to access jungle if you’re the opponent trying to invade. The idea of “inherent teams” I admit doesn’t make as much sense for VG.
In 3.7 dota there were just as many entry points to the jungle on both sides, safer entrances even. The main thing that detered enemies from invading is the fact that teleport scrolls are 60 seconds cooldown and are available from minute 0 in the game. Junglers are not standard as there is no dedicated jungling item and clearing camps required very particular heroes that can do it efficiently. The lanes were much further away from the enemy towers, making ganks very effective. Fog of war and wards behaved differently. Hero picking was atrocious, as one could simply wait and counter pick their opponent.
These suggestions arent particularly balance changes, moreso flavor changes. Lanes will always be mirrored regardless of the map orientation. Heroes will always be picked based on their particular strength in the patch. Also, splitting heroes to particular sides cuts the amount of draft strategy involved.
Dota is a completely different game than VG, with completely different mechanics. If you would suggest any balance changes taking another game as a model, look towards LoL as they are more closely related.
I didn’t know of the mirroring when 5v5 was first released. Good thing, I found it out before I asked anyone same question.