My honest opinion about 5v5

Vainglory Discussion 5v5
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So its been a month since the release of the new 5v5 game mode so i thought i would give my opinion about it. First of all its been great fun so far, after playing 3v3 for 2 years its quite refreshing to play a new game mode that isn’t a brawl mode and i am enjoying myself so far but unfortunately i think the main reason why i am having fun so far is just down to the fact that i am playing something new. Sorry to disappointing you but i am not gonna ride the 5v5 hype bandwagon, i truly believe that its a rushed product that has many flaws in its design and that it won’t be long before 5v5 becomes stale.

The first huge design flaw is the asymmetric nature of the 5v5 map and the river mechanic and how they affect the sidelanes. So because the map in 5v5 is asymmetric, it means that your bot lane is top lane for the enemy and your top lane is bot lane for the enemy and the jungle is also swapped around. This feature combined with the river mechanic mean that bot lane is a lane that is always won and top lane is a lane that always suffocates and ends up losing. So the asymmetric nature of the map means that lane match ups are not even, sidelanes are always (or mostly) a weapon carry into a cp carry and of course the weapon carry spikes much earlier and better in the early game than the cp carry. But it doesn’t stop here, the wp carry gets to have the weapon buff which is very strong early game while the cp buff shines in the mid to late game but it doesn’t matter anyway because this buff will most likely be going to the jungler or the mid laner and most likely never to the top laner since its so far away from top lane. But it also doesn’t stop there not only the bot laner gets a favorable match up and a buff advantage, but he also gets a level and experience advantage because like i said the top laner almost never gets to have the cp buff while the bot laner gets at least the ambient. So that’s already 3 huge advantages bot lane gets over top lane but it still doesn’t stop here, because of the river mechanic, the bot laner always gets all the ganks and assistance he needs while the top laner is always by his own and being camped by the jungle or the support or both. So all of those factors combined just makes the top laner’s life and absolute nightmare while the bot laner is living the dream, i swear i am yet to see a top laner survive the lanning phase and vis versa i’ve never seen bot lane lose the lanning phase (i am talking about fair games not ones where a tier 4 is up against a poa or vg in lane).

The second huge flaw is the jungle and the very lackluster macro play it offers which doesn’t feel any different to the 3v3 jungle. Just like 3v3 where you essentially have 3 jungle camps (the backs the mid and the fronts), the 5v5 map basically also has 3 camps in the form of 2 healers, 2 buffs and 2 gold camps 1 camp on each side of the map. So unlike other big 5v5 mobas where there is a real science behind jungle pathing and how to clear the jungle, the jungle in vainglory 5v5 is very stale and offers very little diversity. So just like in 3v3 where the standard jungle rotation is to start from the backs all the way to the fronts, 5v5 also has that standard jungle rotation of taking the buff then the gold camp and finish the rotation with the heal camp and then the jungler spends a good minute to minute and a half camping mid or bot lane and this cycle repeats until the late game. That’s it, all the jungler has to do all game is to camp lanes and try to get ganks they can’t actually farm, every game the jungler like 15 cs at 9 minutes and 2 levels behind so as a jungler your life is completely worthless you basically rely on your lanes to get ahead.

Edit: 3rd the jungle shop, vainglory is the only 5v5 moba that has a jungle shop and while it was unique and innovative in 3v3 its just way too overpowered for a 5v5 map. Whoever gets a small lead or who is simply stronger than his opponent by the nature of the lanning match up controls the jungle shop by basically zoning out his opponent from it extending his lead furthermore. This once again factors in that top lane vs bot lane dilemma since the bot laner has all the odds in his favor to get that small early game lead and control the jungle shop.

So that’s my opinion on 5v5, so far its quite fun and refreshing but i really doubt it will still be a couple month later the has way too many flawys and its design that ruins certain positions and limit the macro play and strategic aspect of the game.

Edit: https://youtu.be/YJcZ2GimbOs
Go to 12:29, Zio says 12 minutes top i guess that’s fine and that basically confirms my point. Top is just expected to lose and making to 12 minutes without conceding tier 1 turret is considered a win. You can also watch the entire game and see how he was fighting an uphill battle the entire game.

7 Likes
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i actually read the whole thing. :nerd_face:

either the top and bottom lane wins/loses or they get defended so hard that mid lane suffers. Just a heads up, i can understand where you’re coming from, but this could be easily construed and twisted to be argued against.

i agree with 5v5 being fun only because it’s new. I, myself aint brave enough to point out exactly why it will get stale… Its just a weird gut feeling so far… so I will believe your analysis, as I can’t make one with such detail…

3 Likes
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Would selecting an off meta hero for top destroy the opposite player?

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Asymmetric Lane Experiences:
Dota 2 uses a similar mechanic where there is a hard lane and an easy lane. I actually like the diversity of lane experiences and think it will extend the shelf life. Every position feels truly different. Having three identical lane experiences would make the Rise get boring quick. That said, the top lane can be frustrating when teammates refuse to rotate.

Top Lane:
The WP buff is just OP at the moment. I would like to see the Big Bears (BB) provide a little more experience to help the top laner keep up. I think the meta of roam sitting mid while the jungler ganks the enemy top laner needs to change. There needs to be a view that junglers have mid/bot responsibility and roam has mid/top responsibility. If your bot laner is crushing it, then there is no need for a jungler to be ganking down there.

Jungle:
I like that the jungle isn’t just a linear farm experience. Staggered spawn times forcing fights gives the jungler something more to do. Often the jungler is the highest level hero in the game with the most gold despite low CS numbers. The top jungle (heal and BB) becomes the enemies farm. The map changes from left vs right to top vs bot. It makes the top laners life tough.

Jungle Shop:
The shop range may need to be adjusted. The top lane shop could slide back a little. This might make it riskier for the enemy bot laner to shop and easier to for the top laner to take the back path for shopping. Dota 2 has a jungle shop.

I’m playing alot of top lane right now. Heroes with sustain like Samual or Baptist work well. Heroes with burst like Reza do ok. Tanky heroes like Grace and Grumpjaw do ok. It’s ok to view a win as holding top longer than the enemy holds their top. Once you lose your top turret, you are free to rotate because you now have space for the wave.

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I agree that the bot lane has a game play advantage, and the top lane often goes unsupported and ends up being abandoned.

I feel that a huge problem is that snowballing is a lot more brutal in 5v5, and that the early and mid game drags out way too long, which is why abandoning lanes are so common.

I already find 5v5 extremely frustrating when people abandon their positions and feed, and stale when things run smoothly and people play their positions well.

Yes. 5v5 was rushed, and there is a huge disconnect by how the game was designed to be played and how people actually play it.

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I really appreciate the time and care you put into this post. I agree that Top lane is obviously much harder to maintain than bot and for all the reasons you listed. It might be interesting to see how this continues because it’s possible they’ll make some changes in light of it. I think it’s strange that the buffs are situated in a way that favor WP AND they get the river speed for help. I think that was an oversite and loaded bot lane in a way they probably didn’t foresee.

I’d like to see the top lane gain some type of advantage in lieue of the river running toward bot. Right now bot gets the best of both worlds. Maybe move the buff camps, Idk.

Great post !!

1 Like
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I agree that the buffs placement and bot vs top lane matchups can seem “bad” but you can just swap lanes. Buffs are meaningless or worse if you cannot defend them. A good lane matchup is more effective than a buff tat can be fed over the enemy. If anything, the “bot” vs “top” matchup helps keep VG different from other games like League and so on, who have the same roles vs eachother everywhere. Whether this is better is debatable, but I don’t see it as bad at the moment.

The issue to me is mostly that the jungle halves feel imbalanced, and to an extent they need to be to introduce more dynamics into the game.

I do think a rebalance of the jungle (or a rework!) is quite important though, to make the bot vs top matchup feel more fair, and to make the jungler more consistently relevant. Rather than someone who often relies almost purely on kills to get gold ;-;

1 Like