Cooldowns, Hitboxes , Skillshot projectile speeds and Energy costs

So there’s a lot in your post…so i hope my points don’t get confusing. And though you say you want to focus only on late game fights I don’t believe that is possible here because half of the solution to countering heroes like celeste and skaarf is the early game (I can’t speak for baron since since I don’t use him).

Anyway if you’re first paragraph you talked about how heroes like Celeste and skaarf can sit back and spam abilities with no care for energy.
Spammability and energy cost are exactly what make Celeste and Skaarf weak in the early and mid game. As a mage you CAN’T SPAM abilities without care during this time (this is why mages often buy clockwork or eve of harvest, so they don’t run out of energy late game). This is what you have to take advantage of as an assassin or jungler. As a bonus, mages are very squishy and have low mobility so it’s not hard to delete them as an assassin. Throw in a bit of help from a teammate and you’ll be fine. At very least you’ll do quite a bit of damage. Yeah you’ll lose some health but if a hero can basically delete others without losing health they would be broken. IMO once an assassin or jungler is able to close the gap whether it be late or mid or early, any mage is in big trouble if they don’t have boots up.

You also mentioned that it’s hard/impossible to dodge their abilities.
First I want to say that mages are heavily reliant on landing skill shots which is much more difficult to do than basic attacks or targeted abilities. Thus it would be expected that the reward for pulling it off is much greater.

Next I want to say that there are ways to learn to dodge and predict celeste and skaarf A abilities. Once you can predict you’ll it easy to dodge.
-NEVER stay in one spot. Do you know which heroes are the most annoying to go against as Celeste or skaarf? Vox and skye. Why? Because they always are moving around when laning. As long as you are last hitting keep moving around the lane before and after you attack. Any decent mage player will be keeping an eye out for when you are still because you’re an easy target.
-Celeste will always move forward to land her A because the range is short early-mid game. If you notice celeste moving towards you that’s an indicator that a star will be on your ass in the next couple seconds. Also if Celeste hasn’t dropped a star in awhile there’s a higher chance that she will soon (why? because we like spamming abilities, it’s a habit). As long as you aim to last hit, you shouldn’t have much trouble staying out of range and avoiding being hit.
-Skaarf’s A can be avoided if you pay attention to the projectile path. You always have to keep an eye on it and you can because it’s telegraphed as soon as skaarf uses it. Immediately go right or left of the path and buy T2 boots. They more mobile you are the better off you’re be. Like celeste, if you keep moving around, it’ll be difficult for Skaarf to predict where to aim the skill shot. This is why Saw is easy bait for Skaarf, because he very immobile.
Anyway my unsolicited advice was just to point out that it isn’t impossible and if you improve your skills a bit and start thinking of what actions celeste or skaarf will do next, you can outplay them. Remember that mages often look for weaknesses like immobility and try to predict your next move. Being unpredictable is key.

I was going to talk about the other things you mentioned but my own post is getting too long so i’m gonna end it here >_<

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The thing is they adapt even better when they’re not in mid since in other lanes theyre facing either low defense carries with less of an early poke (except kestrel) , or bruiser/tanks like Grumpjaw, Rona or Tony (Grace often) who they can deny farm cuz of their range. You can yourself notice Samuel and Skaarf frequently picking top lane in your own games .

Thanks to vidre ,Satanicsoldier and Ve3nNo0wM for the helpful tips and suggestions. I think all these put together will help me shape up my games against the current midlaning meta. I’ll have my roam friends read them as well. Thanks again.

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No I can’t notice that lol? Going mage top means they would have better laning phase but worse team fight potential as they would have no protection. If jungle and bot actually go tanks then they would win their top which is your bot so again it might be different scenario but they do not have an advantage by having multiple mages.

I’ll just try to keep it short by just telling you the current S tier picks according to Broken Myth.

Top lane : Reza, Taka and Samuel And Grumpjaw(Two mages in Top lane)

Mid lane : Skaarf ,Celeste and Samuel again

I don’t want to waste another second in this forum because of people like you specifically. There is so much wrong with the garbage you spewed in your two previous posts and the fact that your post even got two more people to agree with it is evidence for how much idiotic the forum community is as of now. Sorry I had to be the one call out on your bs. Later.

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I don’t get why you’re so aggressive because of an opinion. With that aside though, should I consider BM’s list as a law? I like the site, it’s pretty cool but their tier lists IMO are focused more around low or mid tiers. The list is an opinion just like mine. For example after the nerfs how is Taka good or even S tier? He doesn’t even have damage with items. And the strongest thing about top Taka was that he didn’t need offensive items. And again I don’t get why you’re so triggered. You make a thread and you want everyone to agree? I mean sorry but you should expect that some will disagree with you.

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Chill people.

BTW not to shut you down or anything but the Broken Myth Tier List is for 3.1. Not for 3.2. (not 4 u Bobmax)

Sorry for being a killjoy.

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Oh that makes sense then. Taka was way too good last patch. To be honest I haven’t visited the site in very long time so I didn’t know it’s for the last patch myself.

The fact that you think the list which is describing the meta (and took hours of work by professional people) is an “opinion” is the reason I’m triggered.

And of course the tier list is focused on mid tier and low tier players because the low tier player is actually the one that is not casual and the low tier player is also the player that is more concerned about the game on the mechanics level. All the balancing updates and current meta updates are focused on the low tier and mid tier guys . the low tier guys are the smart ones that’s why they are in low tier. They are also on low tier because the meta is focused on them. Ofcourse the “opinion list” caters to just the needs of low and mid tier people. You’re right I was wrong man. Really looking forward to see some tier 3 players in the current VG eSports. But the tier 2 players are my favourite, they really know how to make the best use of items, mechanics etc. and countering their opponents through the “opinion list”. Tier 1 players might also be the ones that shine in VPL. The tier 9 and 10 you ask? Oh the game doesnt care about serious players and pros neither does the BM website. Thanks for opening my eyes Bobmax. I was REALLY getting triggered for no reason

Hi, for starters, I wanna state few things.
Hey everybody, good to see all around in their new home after VG official forums closing down (you could find me in the leak section back there leaking stuff)

Now comes a second thing I wanna say about you Arjun

I hope you don’t take it too personal

1-Since you are new, the forums have no idea who you are, now the fact that you came to a place you hate might as well tell that you are quite contradicting yourself there, and as well know, contradicting yourself is unhealthy, to you, and your surroundings, unfortunately

2-By many people including top E-sport teams, it has been stated that broken myth tier list comes not accurate at times (no offense to broken myth creators) but that is true.

3- If you would mind stop behaving like a spoiled child enforcing his opinion on a community that he “hates”, that would do a huge favor to everybody in this peaceful forum. I’m very aware that you would be angry at times regarding the replies above, but this is a place to discuss Vainglory, you will come across many people disagreeing, in a good well mannered way or a childish way,
and it comes back to you whether you like to reply like a professional stating cons and pros in somebody’s else argument or just write a wall of aggressive text, even though Im sure everybody prefers the former option.

4- at last, since you don’t want to waste another second in this forum, I hope you don’t reply to my message, just keep it inside your head, no offense buddy but thats not a way imho to start your account over here, you will simply be disapproved not because you are right or wrong, it’s exactly all opinions here, but because of the way you are stating what is inside your head.

Have a day you deserve, and welcome to the forums again, if you would like to stay.

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Umm you were triggered before I said it is an opinion. Everything I said before that was unrelated to BM’s tier list so nah don’t pull this BS here. All I said was my opinion before that. Also yes you’re right what I said sounds wrong. I didn’t mean to disrespect people working at BM. I know it took a great deal of effort to make. With that said though it is still not 100% correct and it can’t be. Nothing can be. Different tiers have different meta, different people play different heroes, different regions play differently. My point was something being in BM’s list doesn’t make it a law. My other point was I don’t know of 1 high tier person who gets their idea of meta from BM. And they shouldn’t, they should be experienced enough not to. As already mentioned though the list you gave is for last patch. Even then I don’t see your point. There is barely any mages. I just checked VPLs last week top lane picks as I haven’t watched it just in case something changed drastically and nope not a single mage. And I’m not saying 2 mages comp can’t work but then usually you’d need tank in jungle and bot and it definitely is not meta.

Ok, let’s start with the CP Mages you mentioned. Baron’s A, Celeste’s A and Skaarf’s A are all their main damage dealers, They’re meant to be spammable. Imagine it like their Basic attacks, seeing as (with the exception of Celeste) the actual basic attacks deal no damage. If you were playing something like Gwen or Ringo, you’d be hitting them with BA’s. And yes, you can tell me Ringo is rubbish atm, he does need a buff.

As for Gwen’s Ability energy and cooldown, you’re not meant to spam them (at least as WP Gwen). You use the A once to slow your enemies, maybe ult, but then start hitting them with basic attacks.

Another thing with the CP Mages is their lack of mobility. something like Reza can easily chase them down and burst them, and fine, he may lose some health, but as Excoundrel likes to say, that’s what assassins are for. Getting to the backline and eliminating the main enemy damage dealer, regardless of their own survival. If you live to continue fighting then it’s a bonus.

Keep the discussion civil please, guys.

To clarify about the BM tier list, it was in fact for last patch, and the 5v5 meta is still evolving, so don’t take it as gospel. It is generally aimed to describe ~T8/9 solo queue, based on the thoughts of a handful of T9/10 players. It’s not meant to be the competitive meta or top-tier meta for players in organized parties.

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Even so, Gwen doesn’t have an energy/cooldown problem if you build either Spellsword or Halcyon Chargers for her. With both built, I can usually get at least two Ults per fight, and can come close to spamming her A. Usually I do one or the other (usually Spellsword) but Gwen does not need to sit around waiting for energy.

People just chose not to build cooldown/recharge items for WP. Mages, OTOH, typically need recharge to function.

Very true. Altho how long do your teamfights go that you can ult twice? Also, I generally pick HC over spellsword.

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@Arjun900 @Bobmax
Take it to pm please :frowning:(not the discussion part though)
Aftershock and tb will go to crap soon in the next couple updates I think

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Why me? I wasn’t going off topic until he attacked me for no reason. I don’t have anything against him and I just stated my opinion regarding this topic.

I didn’t mean any offense to you sorry about that.
I just mentioned you because he was going at you.

I probably shouldn’t have said “usually”. With Spellsword and Halcyon Chargers it happens though.