Cooldowns, Hitboxes , Skillshot projectile speeds and Energy costs

I want to discuss Cooldowns and Energy Costs . I also want the discussion to be focused on 5v5 teamfights in late games only for now. Baron has 2.5 sec cool down on his Porcupine Mortar which costs 90 energy at max level. But at level 12 Baron gets 765 Energy without any energy items. Baron can just sit on the mortar and continuously spam A’s while waiting for your engaging teammate to make a mistake and with such low cool down there’s a good chance that your teammate will end up getting owned which will ruin the entire game for you because its the late game. If your engaging teammate is someone who has to quickly disengage afterwards like Blackfeather or Reza, then I don’t think you can easily make a safe engage without losing half your health in a metagame of heroes like Skaarf, Celeste and Baron who just sit in the back and spam without the worry of energy costs and Cooldowns. And you can argue that baron sacrifices attack speed for this but how often do you see Baron use his basic attack in late game?

Next I want to discuss about Skaarf’s Spitfire Hitbox, projectile speed , Energy costs and cooldown . The Hitbox of Spitfire being very fat , coupled with the slow projectile speed will hit you in the side even after you dodge it while chasing him in late teamfights. You’re chasing him , he throws his skillshot that you evade then you start to chase back quickly and the same skillshot hits you because it is just slow and it hadnt even passed two tiles in the time that you dodged it and continued to chase him. Now add 3 seconds cool down (without Cool down items) and a 35 energy cost altogether with Skaarf scaling 465 energy without any items at level 12. Now add Spillfire that procs Mortal Wounds and the Buff to Goop’s ignite damage.

I can get that MOBA games like VG can never be balanced properly and some heroes will always be in “META” but why is the meta so one sided? Laning phase doesn’t exist for these heroes. No matter how much better your laning was than them, you’ll still get owned by them comes the lategame teamfight .You’d be 3K gold ahead of the enemy Baron who is like 40 creeps behind you and with 7 deaths, he’ll be of much more use to his team in teamfights and he does all that by sitting behind tapping A continuously . If you are playing a carry then you have to “continuously” dodge this insane barrage of poke abilities while look out for other heroes every one of which has boots giving speed boosts and at least one gap closer .And please reduce damage and proc time for tension bow to make it more balanced instead of making minor nerfs . Like even after your nerfs to Aftershock and Tension Bow, the early ganks grumpjaw will still take your carry to half health and then slow you afterwards leaving you for the oppenent laner to finish up .

I’m not going to mention Celeste because she’s getting her nerf. But please focus on other roles specially lanes and carries other than those that sit in the back and just spam. Ringo is useless in late game no matter how high in gold you are .Gwen has insane energy costs , gets like 395 energy only at level 12, you can use your Buckshot Bonanza twice and Ace High once and then struggle with energy regen before you’re swept clean. Like how often can you use Boomstick against opponents that are equal in gold and skill to you.

Another thing is if you’re playing as junglers in soloq and play like how an actual jungler should which is clearing camps and ganking while not taxing laners for gank fails, you’ll end up with gold lower than the roaming hero for sure because all your camps are taken by the laners . Only thing you can do is tax them which feels like inting because they’re the once who will carry you as the support hero is doing a better role at making gold than you thanks to the long timers and high gold to jungle camps. You have to wait for 100 seconds for Goldoack and Golems to respawn who give such high gold and bad for you if you laner takes all of it . Just wait for another 100 seconds and pray that you’re not sitting in a lane brush trying to gank when it respawns (and also pray your laner is not sitting at your camps trying to take it all then complain about you failing as a jungler) I don’t get how people are even playing junglers. Do you like looking at empty camps the entire game this much? Why are heroes that look like they’re created to lure casual players the same onces that are in the current metagame . And some of you might say “Why don’t you play them instead” , its because they’re not fun to play because VG has a lot of fun to play heroes that dont require you to stand and just tap A continuously . I always thought 3.2 will nerf Skaarf . I wouldn’t have gone through the trouble of writing this essay otherwise but hey look Spillfire now procs Mortal Wounds and Goops ignite damage has been buffed to improve Skaarf’s laning gameplay like he wasn’t broken already . Thank you SEMC for you spot on balancing .This is all we needed. Oh and I think mages still need a much deserved buff in the upcoming patch. Waiting for some mage buffs soon :wink: . Ps : Please buff mages.

TLDR: Low Cooldowns and energy cost rant about mage heroes that are currently in meta. Request to reduce jungle timers and camp golds too and buff some classes other than mages.

I think my brain is bleeding can you try formating a bit at least you know make paragraphs

I’m sorry I’m new to forum posts I’ll look up how to make it look like less of a wall of text and edit later.

Mages getting a buff???
Honestly WTF…

Celeste is really strong right now, so is Skaarf.

Not to mention the stupidly disgusting Malene…

and Samuel is still decent and works.


I was being sarcastic sorry I’m bad at sarcasm.

for your first point: if youre cp baron, why would you use your basic attacks? his A is his main damage ability. so of course it’d make sense to be spammable. if you see wp barons use his A over hid basic attacks, that’s just horrible. also, skaarf, baron and celeste DO worry about energy. that’s why they have clockwork in their builds (also for cd reduction but u need the energy too.). and does it matter if an assassin is half health after killing someone? are you supposed to be invincible as an assassin?

for your 2nd point:
baron is a lategame hero. if you fail to end the game early, of course it won’t matter if you starved him of farm. he’ll just earn money lategame defending.
skaarf also has an unsafe laning phase. his only escape tool is his goop and boots, and both of those are unreliable.
grumpjaw, on the other hand, is an early game-mid game hero, but he falls off lategame. it’s really not tb, it’s just him. he’s able to delete squishies easily.

3rd point:
ringo is just bad right now. and i don’t get it, you rant about spammable abilities and how they’re unfair now you want gwen’s A to be spammable? it used to be spammable, and it made wp far more superior to cp. right now, it’s fine.

i already said this in a previous post, but it’s probably your tier. it’s not smec’s fault that the people take your farm. in higher tiers, people don’t do that. also, instead of ‘taxing’ your laners, just gank for them to relieve pressure, stay a bit to get gold, maybe steal the enemy’s farm.

skaarf’s laning wasn’t buffed. they increased the burst, but lowered the dot.

Can u have a TLDR for thisThis text will be blurred

Sure, let me update. Thanks for suggesting

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For your first point :

I never mentioned which build path I’m talking about. My main problem is with the general cooldown but I’ll let you know that Porcupine Mortars scales 70% on weapon power as well and with the standard wp build that’s recommended for baron that most people use, you will still get A spammed. Wp baron still won’t use basic attack even though its -
i) An AOE
ii) Deals 130% of what usually basic attack would deal.

For your second point - Thanks for letting me know baron is late game. I really hadn’t noticed it after making a discussion about lategame teamfights and writing an essay on his lategame gameplay . Also not even once did I mention Clockwork in the build or any cool down or energy items . I wanted you to notice that these heros have enough energy to spam just through their level scaling and regen that even if you don’t build a clockwork (unless youre celeste) , you can still spam without any problem . Also ignite buff is a laning phase buff. Also Skaarf will still bully you in lane while you try to last hit with his A’s high damage and that fact that people rush damage items early and cannot chase skaarf without boots thanks to goop that now deals bonus on igniting. Also the burn damage reduction really has no impact on Skaarf’s poke ability and farm denying because goop rarely lands right above the moving target to keep him inside it for more than a second. Its lands usually where the target is standing at the periphery and ignite damage is all that is significant in this case.

Your third point : I never asked for Gwen’s A to be spammable there are enough spamming heroes already. I just brought her up to show how she has insanely low energy compared to another carry in the meta baron . Also Ringo is an A tier bottom lane in current meta according to BrokenMyth. I have no idea how you can call him bad so easily

About the 4th point:
If everything i mentioned was not a problem in “high tier” then theres no need for the upcoming nerf to celeste. You’d be pretty sad about it too, "I don’t see a problem with celeste at all . Celeste has nothing wrong that i could point out in my ‘high tier’ matches " . Only thing i agree with is what you wrote about grumpjaw but i want to ask you one thing -you’re not high tier at all are you? In case you are then I don’t know how you can be this oblivious and in case you aren’t , let me crush all your hopes that you’ll get smarter teammates by telling you that

  1. People still don’t pick roams and most of the times wont even tell you their roles so can’t know beforehand and pick roam hero. At least 2 in every 5games you’ll go without a roam hero or the roam hero will build carry items.
  2. No one counterpicks .
  3. You’d be blessed if you have two melee tanks in your team. Bonus if all your team is ranged and some genius picks adagio roam
  4. And the jungler thing that I mentioned happens all the time in my tier 9 5v5.
    If by high tier you mean the pros at worlds, then yeah, no problem over there

TLDR : I disagree with you. And ignite damage is a laning buff i don’t care what any of you have to say about it

well i learned that if someone says they don’t care about other people’s opinions, despite making a thread about it on the forums, trying to discuss won’t be an option. have fun then.

With inputs like “The ignite increased damage is not a laning buff” , yeah clearly wasn’t a good idea making a forum post about it. Just think it over if its a laning buff or not. Think really hard about when are you most likely to stay in goop longer and thus take significant burn damage - in late game where you have to risk positioning in exchange for burn damage or in laning when he lands it you just have to move away.

And I thought that I had the worse formatting (except for the few recent posts that I really take into heart Skaarf’s advice)

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This is my first and last forum post . go easy on me please

Ok so back to the point. Mages need nerfs. Directly or indirectly.

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Exactly. Almost all mages are in meta. Samuel , Reza , baron( not even close to being called a marksman carry at this point) ,Skaarf, Celeste. Marlene is not op now because people are learning to play her but what in exchange for range Marlene has -

  1. a speed boost
  2. a barrier
  3. a root
  4. an aoe skillshot
  5. an invulnerability skill
  6. insane slow FROM BASIC ATTACK
    SEMC could’ve made like 5 heroes from everything I mentioned yet they put all in one.

And about the assasin’s part . what I said was they lose half HP during engage. I never said they managed to get the kill let alone come back safely with 50 percent heath. Like you have be extremely lucky. You need god on your side if you want to engage , get the kill and come out with 50% health. That’s a miracle for the current metagame’s assassins .

All mages being meta and/or viable is actually VERY good though. I mean they are all mid laners, why would it be any better if they are useless potatoes? This is like asking why roam heroes are meta as roamers. And don’t get me wrong, I am not saying anything about their power compared to other positions. Only saying almost all heroes being viable or good in their own position is a good thing.


Why didn’t anyone Welcome this guy to the forums? Welcome and enjoy the discussion :wink:

I read the post. From what i gather, you’re having trouble trying to engage back line mages like Celeste and CP Baron. Skaarf as well.

solution: Somebody be the Captain. Low tiers don’t like playing captain, that’s the problem.

  • Ardan can throw a gauntlet to isolate front and back.
  • Lyra can port into the back.
  • Flicker can make your whole team magically appear anywhere you want.
  • Even a well timed Tony ULT can send the back line flying.
  • Phinn can pull whole teams in.
  • Lance combat roll for days, tanky AF with a root and a stun, on low CD.

Need I say more? It’s hell when nobody wants to be Captain, or you have a bad Captain. Even have 2 captains if you feel like it needs it, you can always flex to deal damage if 1 captain is enough.


Don’t forget grace’s charge stun combo along with an ult heal so a teammate can slip in

Btw welcome home @Arjun900