There are two main people who discussed this with me, @Gatorrex and @TooNub
I am mostly condensing our conversation (in the SEMF discord server) into some interesting points. I think there were some interesting ideas brought up in this conversation that I wanted to share and get more opinions on.
Junglers get barely any Jungle in 5v5. Two thirds of your jungle are generally regularly stolen by laners (Treants and Red/Blue buff). The other two camps are often taken by mid laners to create an artificial lane advantage. This is a very strong tactic and can lead to easy snowballs, but is also incredibly unfun for the jungler. In soloQ especially, junglers can feel like they’re fighting against their own team for money. The majority of a junglers gold comes from kills and stealing the enemy treants (and sometimes taxing lanes). Junglers can often have the same amount or less gold than the Captain, and it’s demoralising and unfun, especially when you’re losing (you’re essentially exponentially behind).
- Faster respawns on your money makers (Gold Treant and standard mobs)
It would probably be farmed even more by the mid laner, making the problem even worse.
- Force people to stay in lane longer
- Jungler exclusive items (for clearing)
It could work, but it needs a lot more than just items
- More mobs (deeper in the jungle, away from the lanes
It doesn’t solve the problem of mid laners taking jungle to get an artificial lead
- Making the mobs stronger (both defence and damage)
Could restrict the number of possible junglers
Solution 1: Jungle Rework
Firstly, make each jungle mob much more difficult to kill, and make them hit much harder. Giving buff mobs / gold to… treant special attacks similar to the treant would be cool too.
Secondly, make unique jungling items. Make them cheap enough to buy the components at level 1. Currently, SGB is the only item that serves this purpose, but other items that can help you clear mobs would be good too.
Thirdly, allow those items to build into real items. Something cheaper than a full damage item, but also having weaker stats. Currently, the perfect example of this is Spellsword. Cheaper and with weaker stats, but useful for junglers who don’t have enough money to go down a full damage route.
- Laners cannot jungle effectively until late game.
- Junglers have items that are well suited to them (Junglers have difficulty getting to full build in most matches)
- MORE ITEMS
- Pushes away some potential off meta junglers
- Jungle items would likely need their own tab
Solution 2: Lane rework
Firstly, flask will be removed from the game, and halcyon potions will be re-introduced.
Secondly, lane minions will be easier to clear early game.
- The REMOVAL OF FLASK. Flask had a cooldown of 120 seconds, and due to how powerful it is, one team not having it on one or two members is a real disadvantage. This encourages stalling out objectives till your whole team has flask.
- The re-introduction of potions increases lane sustain, making taking treant not nearly as essential as it is now. It’s also handy to be able to sustain safely in soloQ, as teams will often leave certain lanes without assistance for large amounts of time.
- Makes it more punishing to leave lane to farm jungle, as lanes can be pushed easily and your opponent will be in lane for longer.
- Messing with waveclear can have massive unintended concequences
- It could just… NOT work
NOTE: These aren’t changes for all modes. These are changes exclusively for 5v5. One of SEMC’s greatest mistakes between 3v3 and 5v5 was trying to keep as many things from 3v3 as consistent as possible, but that’s just NOT how game design works. Prime example is the 2D -> 3D jump that Sonic made. When in 3D, if you want Sonic to go fast, you have to make SO MUCH LEVEL compared to his 2D games, and it can be unrealistic to expect that out of a normal games budget. Point is, keep 5v5 and 3v3 different. We want the best experience out of both these modes, instead of two mediocre modes with a strange mix of things that work in each.