3.8 won't kill the tank meta, and why it shouldn't have to


#1

I’ve seen a lot of responses to the 3.8 meta changes that have come to the conclusion that it will not kill the tank meta, in a sense I agree. Most tanky cc engage heroes will still be strong in 3.8, and they should be. This tanky engage role is something that Vainglory has lacked in the past, and feels like the role captain players have always asked for: A utility position with the opportunity to deal damage, find kills, and make big plays, it’s not a play style that should be discouraged moving forward.

The problem with 3.6-3.7 is this playstyle fed into an already unhealthy 5v5 meta game. The issue isn’t with the tanks, it’s how they fit a meta that emphasized miss matched lanes, and gold funnel onto two carries. Without the duo jungle meta, and 1v2 top lane (which I believe won’t exist in 3.8) these kinds of picks naturally fall into a less prominent roll, still useful to create a strong frontline for your team, but not ubiquitous.

What i’m getting at, is that players shouldn’t expect these kinds of picks to go away. The meta in the future will probably 2 utility per team, with the potential for a 3rd in hypercarry comps. Anything is unhealthy in excess, what needs to be done is find a place for all kinds of heroes, and 3.8 is big step towards that. I expect aggressive solo junglers like Koshka, Krul and Inara to be very popular, and 1v1 side lanes means almost any hero with good lane trading can readily succeed there.


#2

Nah I want 4 dps, support is boring.


#3

I think they should kill the triple tank meta, but obviously, using engaging captains should be posible, but without creating a CC based meta, which is boring, frustrating and requieres low skill


#4

I disagree. I quite enjoy making the plays happen, rather than just tagging along to deal the damage. Also, they’re necessary.

What I think we should have is 3 carries, (DPS or Burst, basically just mass damage fragile carries) one Support, and a jungler who can also build as an agressive support. By this I mean someone like Glaive, Bap, Tony or even Grace, who have both high damage potential, but also have the CC to support, and can build an extra Crucible or fountain if required. Almost like a Hybrid Jungler/Cap role. And I suppose this could be a laner rather than a jungler too.


#5

It seems you miss understood my post, you’re saying pretty much exactly what I am. A second utility position is good for the game, a really enjoyable alternative to captain, and will defiantly continue to exist in the future.


#6

That’s what they have done. Triple tank will be far less effective in 3.8, but still potentially viable with a hyper carry comp possibly.


#7

Lol you think carries can’t make plays? You’re sadly mistaken. Pulling someone or stunning them isn’t the only way to make a “play”. Also if you want two tanks you’re entitled to that opinion but I personally just feel too useless as jungler and top lane as of right now.


#8

I wouldn’t call “stunning” a play. Funny how Sonata said cc was designed as a way to outplay opponents. I’m yet to see how using ordained or merciless persuit is outplaying someone.


#9

Well he said “I enjoy making the play happen” so he must be referring to the CC supports bring.


#10

Yes, but I don’t cosider ccing someone “outplaying”.


#11

Cc inherently creates outplay potential the same way mobility does. Mobility allows you to avoid and maneuver around your enemies, crowd control allows you to control or prevent them from taking action. Playing cc hero reminds me of using a blue counter spell deck in magic the gathering, you have to predict and interrupt your enemies movements and prevent them from taking action.

For example, Ringo has pretty much zero outplay potential, you can play him very well and win unlikely fights but not outplay. Gwen who has a stun however had far more outplay potential with her ultimate. If you time her stun correctly you can cut off your enemies options.


#12

Those outplays are based in not allowing your opponent to play, not in playing better


#13

No sorry, I was replying to @Saint7502’s comment saying he wants 4 dps and support is boring


#14

They are based on good timing and understanding of heroes capabilities. Saving your stun for important interrupts, and know what will have the biggest impact.

A good Catherine will hold her stun to stop the scaarf ult, or silence before the captain has the chance to fountain a key target. Without this cc actions can’t to be countered creating less counterolay, this makes both the role of a captain easier and require less understanding of the game, and the role of the skaarf simpler because he doesn’t have to position well and avoid being interrupted.


#15

I never said CC is bad, but abuse it yes.


#16

True, A carry can “make plays” almost as much as a captain can.A Reza or Anka diving in can be a much bigger play than a Yates pull. What I was trying to say is that I much prefer being able to harass enemies with CC as well as support your allies. I probably didn’t really make that clear.

I said this when 5v5 first came out, and I still stick to it: Considering how much CC a team can have with 5 heroes, I think teams would do much better with two support types, or, as I said, “a second crucible”. I really like the double tank meta, with one true support and one aggressive Jungle support.


#17

Exactly. Most of the uproar comes from diehard 3s fans who want quick matches orientated around snowballing. People make it sound like CC chaining is the most easiest thing to do in a game, but it really isn’t especially in a SoloQ environment or competitive one. It becomes hard in SoloQ because you need to coordinate. And in competitive people should be having god like reflexes for block, so it becomes rather difficult to pull one off. The only time triple tank meta will bring you a 100% WR is when you are penta q and that’s because that will pit you against low tiers or a bunch of SoloQ players.

I believe the most optimal way to play the tank meta is to have you top laner and jungler being relatively tanky heroes who have good early game damage such as Lance, GJ, and Ardan. The two of them should pressure the enemy bot and jg duo while your bot laner is helping the mid laner clear enemy CP jg and bot jg. The captain has to guard the two of them because they will be the ones hypercarrying. This is what I would call strategic gold funneling, because it isn’t much about who can funnel more gold on to their carries but instead who can deny gold to the enemy team. Most players don’t do that.

There are also a lot of risks to playing a tanky hero because what if your hypercarries can’t carry? In the last two ranked matches I have played it was a Lance top and Ozo top match. Both being wins. In the Ozo match I had healed and tanked the most. As well as doing the second most damage and since I’m playing a melee hero most of that damage was important (mages poke so they rack up damage but not all of it was crucial). If I were to have played a tank our bot lane Varya would not be able carry not like she was already as she lost bot. But our mid laner Lyra would have a much harder time. On the other hand in my Lance match I managed to tank the most and deal the third most amount of damage. The match was mostly won because of how effectively I was able to peel for my carries, unlike the enemy team. And peeling that effectively was possible because i was playing Lance a high risk high reward hero. If I was on Catherine we would have lost. The fact I was able to nullify the enemy carry helped as well.

Hypercarrying games takes mechanical skill as well as good rotations. Protecting the hypercarries involves risks and the ability to peel effectively. If everything was brain dead the meta would be top Adagio, captain Phinn, and Grace jungle. Grace uses her B as Phinn pulls in, Adagio burns everyone and Ults, Phinn uses Quibble. And your hypercarries would pop off on you.

In the next update I can see a lot more exclusivity on skill as more top laners will have gold to work with meaning they can kill the enemy bot laner. So bot lane will require more skill rather than a simple ban on GJ and calling it a day.


#18

Any old stun isn’t an outplay, no. Hitting a fleeing enemy with a merciless pursuit is no outplay, although it is a good way of getting a kill.

But you can make them outplays. A well timed stun is an outplay. Ordaining (is that a valid conjugation of ordained?) a Taka just as he’s winding up to X-Retsu, that’s an outplay.


#19

Then only some of them are outplaying, but not cc in general. Honestly, I’m surprised no one used silvernail as an argument: more outplaying via cc than him it’s impossible.


#20

Well, hitting someone who is cced is not hard at all.